Mike

Thanks. Lots of data, lots of old 70s nostalgia, even a little 12 year old GreaseSpot nostalgia for me.

Hi Grace Valerie Claire, It’s a little difficult for me to respond without cranking back up my usual agenda as promised, but I’ll try. I think of the two major responses to TWI (happy and unhappy) the happy variety tends to be quiet and dispersed. From my own poking around I think the numbers are enormous. Most are only moderately happy, and almost none are as happy as me and a few others. I have two VERY close High School friends who took PFAL, one with me in 1972 and one a few years later. Both liked the class, spoke in tongues, and felt set free of RC prisons. But both were unimpressed with the extreme youthfulness of the leadership (it was sometimes ridiculous) and their learning leadership skills (sometimes very slowly). Both of my relatively happy friends drifted off from twig fellowships, but not from me. Over the years I have observed that their “happiness” has remained constant. They still appreciate what they learned, even though it is fading radically after 45 years. I can often rekindle some by a phone call. I’ve also noticed that some very isolated twigs and branches with low numbers of people and large number of miles, tended to do better year after year. Not a whole lot of spiritual action is going on there (except some degrees of happiness), so there are less soap operas. These were the kinds of twigs that stayed in TWI after the first explosions in 1986. Then there’s the other side, the unhappy side. I saw very little damage ever done to new people. Recent grads were usually well protected. It’s when grads started moving up the power structure of TWI that you start seeing all sorts of soap operas develop. Look into training programs and all hell breaks loose. My take on it is that wherever there was more of the positive spiritual action you also had negative spiritual actions taking place. Working at HQ was stifling and crazy for its subtly of soap operas, at least the kinds I saw. It was a subtle struggle there, while on the field it was wonderful working with new people. *** I have developed this theory on intense action attracting BOTH spiritual forces and in great entanglement a little further, but need to stop soon. Here is a hint: I think the whenever God opens a large spiritual door to permit a large intervention in physical matters, that same door permits the adversary to operate at a higher degree. Knowing this, God’s wisdom keeps most doors pretty shut tight for our protection. An example of a major door being shut would be the flaming sword blocking the entrance to Paradise in Genesis. It was for protection. Another example is Paul on the road to Damascus. The open door allowed someone to blind Paul. This blindness was against God’s will, and was fixed soon. Another example is Naaman’s healing. A wonderful breakthrough, and a flow of healing power through the open door. And what happened to Geheza, the assistant of the prophet? That same open door took him down real bad. Some were happy about that open door; some very unhappy. This theory is only in the development stages. I call it “Double Doors.” I’m brainstorming it a little here.

Thanks for the welcome, Word Wolf. I can deal with the debate and even hostility. I think I reacted and decided most on the grief I saw on other threads, more than (perceived) hostility. It was the many families broken up that broke me up. I didn't realize how lucky I was in how little the craziness affected me. I remember the other forums from long ago and may visit them. Right now I'm more into reading and finding out what's happened in the past ten years, plus lots of the old nostalgia from the 70s. Maybe I'll see you around the block or two.

Thanks. That's cool.

I'm doing a lot of reading here lately, and a question popped up. Is there a way to "LIKE" a post or a thread here as in FaceBook? It looks like there is, but how does it work?

Thanks much, folks. I know I missed a few specific people, but when I have some time I'll search the thread for any glaring omissions on my part.

An Apology About an hour ago I implemented my decision to apologize and stop posting. I started with a long letter of apology to So_crates, and then followed with shorter apologies to others. I’m re-writing the letter to So_crates below for all to consider, so that this decision is not well buried. Please allow me to apologize to others here for the way I have been. After a week of soul searching I have come to realize that the main reason I returned to post here was NOSTALGIA. I just miss grads and grad talk. Part of that nostalgia kick has been reading up on posters stories and other threads by the current frequent posters. In doing so I’ve come across lots of emotional reminders of the problems that happened at TWI. Most of those problems hit me much lighter than the others whose stories I was reading. In general, I’ve come to realize that my nostalgia thrills are not worth it, seeing the commotion and stir that my posting has been. I really thought that after a 10 or 12 year hiatus, things may have calmed down. They did not; some ways they are worse. Some of the problems posters recounted that hit me hardest were in how families were disrupted. It reminded me of hurt grads, close friends of mine, of long ago who got ground up in the ministry machinery. I had forgotten their pain. *** I think I was wrong in posting, seeing my topic causes grief. Grief causing was not my intention. I now feel it’s my moral duty to stop posting my message. I honestly thought the hostilities would calm down after a month of my recent posting. I was wrong. I honestly thought the hostilities would be GONE after my being gone for 10 years. I was wrong. *** I see better now the lingering hurt of TWI that still bothers MOST people here. I should have seen how something that I consider good news is not so good an association for me to bring up over and over here. I owe apologies to all here, and I have sorrow for what I’ve done. This has been going on and off in my head for a week now, and it’s not been letting up, but getting worse. I want to learn from this. I will stick around for a little (like a few days), hoping for a means to make some kind of token amends. Possibly, if I offer to answer questions (best of my ability) that may help, but I also can’t see anyone losing any sleep if I just split immediately. I will stick around long enough to try and clean up any issues, if possible. My usual style and agenda for using questions as mechanisms for getting my message out is in the trash can. Instead of dodging questions that may interrupt my message flow and/or be useful later, I’ll just try my best to answer them. I have no plan, but to stop posting my message. Maybe if I stick around a tiny bit people can get some closure on this episode. I’m sorry I didn’t read all those personal stories first, before I started posting. Peace.

Rocky, I apologize. Please scroll up one hour for more details. I am sorry. I thought it through, finally.

Yes, I was going back and forth on it. It was an emotional roller coaster for me. It's over. I prayed a lot and came to the conclusion that many of your criticisms are valid.

Please accept my apology for being a pain in the a$$. I will stop.

Thanks for stopping by, and thanks for letting others know I'm not dangerous in any way. I have apologized to many already, but I think you and I never got into any fistfights here. I know, however, that a lot of people look up to you and gain much support from you. I want to apologize to them and you for wasting your time. Thank you for the few sentences where you acknowledged the hot years on Long Island. That small passage of yours was one of the big nostalgia hits of the month for me. Unfortunately, my Way grad nostalgia affinity had me stepping on too many toes here. It was inconsiderate of me to have not thought that through better. Nostalgia is not a good reason to make others feel uncomfortable, and that's what I have done.

Thanks for the offer, but I am realizing my effect on others better than I did before. I apologize.

Rocky, I'm sorry I bothered you. You didn't do anything to me to deserve the way I came on in posting. I'm running out of words for apologizing, so I need a rest. I just wanted to apologize right now for wasting your time. I did not sleep well for this. I wish you well.

Yes, grace. But I was not as serious and detailed when I wrote what you quoted as I am now. I am stopping the posting of my message, because I am coming to a deeper awareness of how many here were hurt by TWI and that my message brings that hurt to mind afresh. Please accept my apology for allowing the implication in my post that your education was lacking. You probably have a much stronger education than I have.

waysider, I apologize for the personal attack. Actually I was being rough in the first half of my post, and the second part that you quoted was actually not an attack. I am genuinely interested in how other people get the proofs they need to move on with God. I was sincere in those later questions to you, but the rough language that preceded it probably camouflaged my intentions. This was my fault not yours, as Rocky (I think) pointed out something similar a day ago. My interest in proofs is genuine. I will not press you for an answer.

So_crates, Please allow me to apologize to you for the way I have been here.After a week of soul searching I have come to realize that the main reason I returned to post here was NOSTALGIA. I just miss grads and grad talk. Part of that nostalgia kick has been reading up on posters stories and other threads by the current frequent posters. In doing so I’ve come across lots of emotional reminders of the problems that happened at TWI. Most of those problems hit me much lighter than the others whose stories I was reading. In general, I’ve come to realize that my nostalgia thrills are not worth it, seeing the commotion and stir that my posting has been. I really thought that after a 10 or 12 year hiatus, things may have calmed down. They did not; some ways they are worse. Some of the problems posters recounted hit me hardest were in how families were disrupted. It reminded me of hurt grads, close friends of mine, of long ago who got ground up in the ministry machinery. I had forgotten their pain. *** I think I was wrong in posting, seeing my topic causes grief. Grief causing was not my intention. I now feel it’s my moral duty to stop posting my message. I honestly thought the hostilities would calm down after a month of my recent posting. I was wrong. I honestly thought the hostilities would be GONE after my being gone for 10 years. I was wrong. *** And to you, So_crates, I want to tell you I am so sorry for any grief I gave you. I was unaware of your medical situation. I think you mentioned it in passing once, and I was not sharp enough to register it. I recently saw some extensive posting you did on it, and it was obvious to me I had do some re-thinking. But even if you had no medical situation I still feel I was wrong in the way I interacted with you. I see better now the lingering hurt of TWI that still bothers MOST people here. I should have seen how what I consider good news is not so good an association for me to bring up over and over here. I owe apologies to you, as well as all the others here, and I have sorrow for what I’ve done. This has been going on and off in my head for a week now, and it’s not letting up but getting worse. I want to learn from this. I will stick around for a little (like a few days), hoping for a means to make some kind of token amends. Possibly, if I offer to answer questions (best of my ability) that may help, but I also can’t see anyone losing any sleep if I just split immediately. I will stick around long enough to try and clean up any issues, if possible. My usual style and agenda for using questions as mechanisms for getting my message out is in the trash can. Instead of dodging questions that may interrupt my message flow and/or be useful later, I’ll just try my best to answer them. I have no plan, but to stop posting my message. So_crates, I didn’t get to read your post yet, but I will, and I will refrain from responding in my usual way. If there is any item in it that you want to see a response (in the new style) then please let me know. Maybe if I stick around a tiny bit people can get some closure on this episode. I’m sorry I didn’t read all those personal stories first, before I started posting. Peace.

I'm not trying to prove #1, not just now anyway. I’m not finished proving #2 yet. It looks to me like you’ve not been paying very good attention. I’ve possibly corrected 5 posters in the past few weeks on item #1. Seems everyone wants to make this mistake. I get the impression very little actually being read with any comprehension. Looking for targets is all I perceive when I see posts like this. When can you actually look at what you are criticizing? Not yet, I see. As for item #1, I am trying to get a feel for what kinds of proofs you folks have to support your belief systems, ESPECIALLY if it involves the Bible. I’d like to try sculpting my proof in the image of yours, but I need to know your proof to do that. So, in your faith life, waysider, tell me something of what “claim has been substantiated to any reasonable degree of satisfaction” ? I want to see explicitly how proofs work in your life.

You assume dishonesty when you merely don't understand. Twice lately (and twice 10 years ago) I posted that the standard I observed at staff meetings for the level of perfection VPW chose for shipping finished product out of TWI. He was angry at minute errors, but acknowledged the practicality of 100% free of minute errors probably would never happen. I’ve posted this 4 times before, but in all your huffing and puffing you missed it. I’ve also posted what I honestly do NOT know (yet), like the status the last chapter of JCNG, and the Preface of ADAN. There’s also two way mag articles that are being looked into.

The week end is here and the life I already have beckons. I will read these when possible. I have a quick question. Did anyone here attend PFAL '77 ? IF so, do you remember much about how VPW handled "all without distinction" ? I was there, and I remember very deliberately looking at his face for that segment and not my KJV. I remember VERY well what and how he said it, because I had spent 5 years wondering (like others did then) if that was a mistake in the class and book. SPOILER ALERT! He changed it to "all with distinction." Mistake? That depends on how you look at it and what surrounding evidence may eventually roll in. If you want to think the film and book are a mistake and PFAL'77 is correct, I could care less. I am looking in a surprisingly different direction, so it shouldn't be surprising that I find things surprising things. ...to be continued. I'll show you why it is not a mistake.

Do you think God did wrong by hiding The Mystery? In your theology, did God deceive the devil?

No. In my case it just means I'm plodding along consistently in a direction that is breathtakingly baffling to you and others.

Not the implication I had in mind. The fact that the book was written by committee meant that there were quite a few more middle men (like proofreaders and printers) than normal. More possibilities for tiny errors to creep in. THAT was the context of my committee comment. Raf you missed the context.

#16 - VPW "Thus Saith the Lord" Statement This next occurrence of I Thess 2:13 is longer, more spread out, and more subtle. It's Dr second handling of this verse in the class. This is near the end of segment 13: Let me show you something from I Thessalonians two thirteen, listen to this: I Thessalonians 2:13: 'For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.' You know, you may have the Word of God, you may know the Word of God but it does not work effectually in people. It does not work effectively with power until we do one thing. Believe. You believe that Word and lo and behold you speak that Word and it produces the same results today that it has produced at any time in the history of civilization since that Word has been given. You know, the Bible says that we are to abide in the Word. We are to abide in the Word and we're to let this Word abide in you. To the end that we abide in the Word this Word takes the Master's place in our lives through our renewed mind and then it becomes our vocabulary but it is God's Word. We speak, this is our vocabulary, we speak the Word but as we speak the Word it is God's Word. 'I thank my God that when ye received the Word which ye heard of us ye received it not as the word of man,' sounds like it, 'but as the Word of God which worketh effectually in those that believe.' This Word of God cannot be broken, that's right. Just cannot be broken, not one iota of it can be broken, for what God promised He is not only able but willing to perform and that whole Word fits like a hand in a glove. You see it is this Word of God that really thrills a man. In Luke chapter twenty-four. Matthew, Mark, Luke, let me just check this with you. Luke twenty-four listen to verse thirty-two:Luke 24:32: 'And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?' This was speaking about Jesus on the road to Emmaus after the ressurection as he spoke to these men. He opened unto them the scriptures. You see how their hearts thrilled, how their hearts burned within them because he opened to them the scriptures. I've never seen a man or a woman or a boy or a girl in these classes on Power for Abundant Living whose soul just has not thrilled with an effervescence and with an abundance and with a glow when this Word of God started to unfold, started to fit like a hand in a glove. It made sense and how their hearts burned within them. How they thrilled at the greatness of God's Word! *** I’d say this statement #16 is more subtle than the other two like it, both of which were HOT! Seen alone, this one is extremely subtle. Seen with the other two, this one glows!

#15 - VPW "Thus Saith the Lord" Statement Interestingly enough, the preceding use of I Thess 2:13 in the film class was the THIRD time in the class Dr covered that verse. By the time that last session was reached, as described above in statement #14, Dr had TWICE already introduced the class to this verse and to Paul's authoritative teaching being "like" his own God-given authority. Here's the first such occurrence of I Thess 2:13 in the film class. This is segment 11: You see very few of us have gone back to the Word, we have gone back to men. And we have said well what did Kant say, what did Plato say, what did Aristotle say, what did this theologian say, what did this man say, what did this other person say? Class, back to the Word! The Word and nothing but the Word! For it's this Word which is the Will of God! That's right, bless your heart. Look at I Thessalonians, I Thessalonians chapter two; Acts, Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, I Thessalonians; the same trouble tonight I had before, this India paper is just a little to thin to find all these scriptures so quickly; but they're in here. I Thessalonians 2:13 listen to this: 'For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us,...' You see they received the Word of God which they heard of Paul it was Paul's vocabulary but what he was speaking was God's Word. But to the senses ears the people could have said, "well that's Paul talking, that's just Paul, yeah that's just Paul." Like they say, "oh, that's just Dr. Wierwille, yeah..." I've heard that, no, no, no. ...thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually [which effectually] worketh also in you that [do one thing--go to church every Sunday morning, sit in the front pew and shout glory hallelujah, believe in all the social action programs;] no a thousand times no. Works effectually in those who do one thing. What? believe.

The 2 things are VPW told us he believed the PFAL writings were God-breathed, and that we all missed him telling us this, because many of the statements were very subtle, and some not-so-subtle ones were placed in elementary locations, thus eluding advanced students. I'm thinking of stopping (at least for a while) after I finish the 22 statements. Besides, I gotta put more time into the other areas of my life. This soaks me for hours.