Mike

Had you been reading my posts for understanding, instead of Gotcha hooks, you would have not posted that. I have stated several times that I think the Corps should be called Wierwille's Folly. You missed understanding that and MANY other times when I said I thought VPW went off the beam with his inventing the Corps the way he did.

Why are you all so impatient that I finish Undertow? The ending was pretty much spoiled by all the discussion here. I pretty well know what wall she ran into in the Research Dept and how befuddling it must have been to her. It befuddled me too. I ran into that wall around 1977, almost 10 years before she did. I pondered it for years and finally saw the answer. The Research Dept was never set up to use 5-senses methods to discover truths that were mangled and hidden by the devil 2000 years ago. That is a foolish goal for 5-senses researching, in that it tries to match wits with the devil. You need lots of power to do that, more than 5-senses can provide. The research dept was set up for several other reasons. I made a list one day, but it is eluding me at the moment, so I'll try and remember some now. */*/*/* Research Dept GOALS and AIMS 1 – To verify what VPW had been hearing from God but had not ever found 5-senses proof. This would give him closure and help him move on to other topics. 2 – To find more examples of scripture teaching what was already in PFAL 3 – To help students believe better what they were taught 4 – To help prove things to other Christians who were suspicious of VPW 5 – To help grads in not getting swayed by the erroneous teachings of Churchianity I am going to search for my list and add to that someday.

Sadly, you favor the advice God gave to his sheep who had no spirit, and dismiss the MUCH better arrangement Jesus bought for us in the new birth. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9 Now, after being cleansed this way, THEN some repenting with fruitful new right behavior is the RIGHT THING to do next. It will help in avoiding repeat offenses, and it can help others with trusting the sinner again if they were affected by the sin. No one can have a power walk with God and do a juggling act with being in and out of fellowship. I suspect there were times in VPW's life when he was relatively powerless, compared to his spiritual abilities earlier in his life. Like David and Saul, the riches of the ministry may have softened him and he was less effective in his later days. Bouncing back and sticking in sustained fellowship gets harder and harder, the longer the juggling act continues. I see VPW possibly wasting much of his later years on the Corps, and then trying to fix things in his very last few years. What he did to make the class and most of the collaterals in those early years tells me he had lots of sustained fellowship in those very early years... and a lot less riches to distract.

When I look at the fruit in MY LIFE that came from PFAL and the collaterals, I know for sure VPW was God's spokesman. I have a hard time looking at the fruit in someone else's life. I can't see the fruit in your life and you cant see mine. Neither of us can see the fruit in VPW's life, especially now, 38 years after his death. But you can very well see the fruit in YOUR OWN LIFE! Do you member ANYTHING going well for you after you first took the class? Have these years at GSC ploughed over all those good memories. I really think you are forgetting the great good that happened in your life when first taking PFAL and learning your Bible. Otherwise why would you take more classes? Why would you sign up others for the class? Why would you serve as a leader? You MUST have had good fruit that you are forgetting.

It is when they STOP being willfully stubborn and unrepentant long enough to admit TO GOD that they were in sin. If we confess [admit] our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)

We all are repeat offenders. You have the authority of the Word on David and Solomon having sin and yet coming back to God in repentance. You have NOTHING on VPW never repenting except your repeating it over and over for years and hearing others over and over repeating it for years. Your heart is known only to God. Aren't you glad about that? You and no one you know have access to know VPW's heart, ESPECIALLY 38 years after his death. You make up false facts about repentance happening or not. Wait for the bema to know that.

Oops! Double post

My experience is that it was MUCH MORE SO in personal practices that things went wrong. The film class and collaterals were good. Their dangers are an illusion. Much did go wrong in how individuals conducted themselves.

Thank you MUCH for that. Some good advice on separating simple ego anger from righteous anger. It would be wonderful if a few other posters could calm down a little like you have proved you can do a few times. */*/* I think GreaseSpot does a good job in laying down what went wrong in the entire ministry, but the pretended abilities to see into VPW's heart, or to see any repenting he did or did not do, is not real and does not exist, yet it is pretended daily. In reckless zeal many here are under the illusion that if they soundly condemn VPW and PFAL then that will solve some of the problems he and especially his Rogue Corps Officers caused for us all. That reckless zeal really and truly throws out the wonderful baby God gave us along with the bathwater. The criticisms of the class and collaterals here constantly shows me that most of the criticizers, though experts in the bathwater, have no deep understanding of the class. */*/*/* This "parallel" thing soundly illustrates how many of the great criticisms come from people who were not so dedicated to get the doctrine of the class WELL understood when they first took it and the years thereafter. In my early days no one but me asked detailed questions like WHY the word "parallel" is used. I got my answers as I sought them, but I was the Lone Ranger in my circles back then. What I saw in my growing up in the ministry was very few grads pushing themselves systematically to get it all accurate. People took classes often just so they could take the AC, possibly for the status and not the knowledge. Lots of grads were not that hungry for all the details; I was; they gently mocked me for it. I didn’t mind; I prayed they would get more interested later. What I saw them most interested in was the rich social club the ministry was at times and in some places. Many grads never read their Bibles except in fellowship. I also saw some grads gravitate to enter the Corps very quickly after taking the class, and many I suspected were more interested in bossing people around or having a Reverend status someday. I have MUCH deeper Word conversations with grads here at GreaseSpot than I did back then, because most grads had not really focused that much on the actual teachings. Here lots of focus is on the teachings, but with the wrong intentions IMO of destroying them and not to absorb, use, and pass on to others. In the old days I had to wait for a real research leader to swing by so I could get out my lists of questions. I bonded early with Walter. I had to wait for big events to ask questions, while others were socializing mostly. What happened is all these grads with shallow study habits were totally blown away when the troubles came. It was the parable of “the sower and the seeds” going on bigtime. Very few really sought the deep knowledge systematically, and I sense that characterizes the most vehement and diligent critics of both bathwater with baby. I recommend that posters calm down, get more civil, and concentrate on useful constructive criticism, dropping the hate, and Old School, I would love to see you help. There is a receptive TWI-4 ear that I have access to. I want to help them change their practices and attitudes, as they are already actively doing that very thing themselves. We here at GreaseSpot could assist them if we turned this site into a source of good constructive criticism for how things were and/or done at TWI now. I recommend GreaseSpotters turn their gun-sights on the bad practices and procedures and TVTs, and back off on the class and collaterals. The latest round over ONE WORD (parallel) being lame in the film class is crazy. Everyone got the meaning of the needs and wants teaching in spite of that one word, and then it got immediately corrected in the PFAL book a couple of years later. Why waste time mocking and jeering that needs and wants teaching over that one word? Why not look at CURRENT practices and procedures at TWI that are actually a real problem, while they are open and humble to listen. When they perceived that I loved them and wanted to help (and not hurt), they opened up to me and showed they know they have needed repairs to do. I am currently maneuvering with a few Innies on how to handle writing an honest and full-enough history of VPW to make LOVING admissions in writing about his admittedly bad behavior at times. Very few here are able to do that, but maybe in time more can. I recommend posters give up the assault on PFAL and try to learn it more deeply. We can discuss here the confusing or the suspicious looking doctrines we were given without prejudging them. If everyone would stand back and look at that one tiny word “parallel” and quit using it to mock and jeer at a perfectly good doctrine that everyone understands, then THAT would be helpful to others. It was only that one word that was misunderstood; only one idiosyncratic word in VPW's vocabulary. It is time for GreaseSpotters to step back and re-think needs and wants without the distraction of that one word. This should be done with all the other questionable doctrines: ask questions and learn the deeper things in the collaterals that were not deeply learned long ago. And please turn off the mindless ill-informed attacks on the baby, and turn on loving constructive criticism.

Actually, I believe God does NOT continue to work in willfully stubborn and unrepentant sinners, at least not in any profound deep way.... but even then, He seems to be able to find some opportunity, like with Balaam's prophecy. But we know of no other good things Balaam did. His relationship with God was very inefficient, and he didn't get much done for God. Where you and I differ on this is I do not think you have the ability to see a person's heart like God does. I reject your identifying VPW as being such a willfully stubborn and unrepentant sinner continuously. There may have been some seasons where he was really out of it like that, and surely the devil took note of it, and constantly reminds everyone of it, creating the impression that he STAYED in that down funk continuously for years. You cannot know if and when he repented, or how many times. All you can do is claim to know, over and over for years, until you convince yourself that you are correctly condemning him and all his works. I reject your assessment of VPW; it is not God inspired.

I totally get that and feel similarly. Less for VPW, because he did say in 1972 (for those carefully listening) that he was a downer an outer like us and NOT a "real deal goodie-goodie." He admits in one of the collaterals that he was weak. In 1985 he wrote on his grave's headstone "I wish I were the 'real deal' I know to be." In 1986 it was the suppression of the MUCH NEEDED Schoenheit paper that disgusted me to the max. For the next 10 years I had lots of anger toward VPW and all the rest of top leadership. But I also had a hunch that the real deal for us was the class, and that year I got my first bootleg copy of the videos. The anger slowly faded as I reviewed all the good things I had heard from him. Meanwhile LCM and TWI continued to become much worse, at least at the top. It is wonderful that some cool people survived TWI-2 and TWI-3, and now are trying to do it better. I figured that like David and Solomon, VPW had his good days when he walked well enough to help me immensely with the class. I figured he may have slipped up and gone comparatively inefficient in his later years. His health reflects this for those years. I agree things went really bad, but I refuse to throw away the good, and I refuse to follow the bandwagon of hate that seeks to destroy the good, and befuddle many grads in the process, THUS EXTENDING THE BAD beyond the ministry and onto the Internet. The attempted destruction of PFAL will fail. It will die when the last poster here dies. Meanwhile, those grads who can recognize the good will preserve it and pass it on to their families and friends. Too many people have the videos and the collaterals for PFAL to fade away. But the exaggerated objections to what is taught in PFAL will fade away to nothing.

You don't cite any source here. That is very suspicious.

It is very difficult for me to keep track of the variations of style people have in discussions with me and about me. I apologize for forgetting that you were the one who did seem to lighten up a few weeks ago in the antagonistic posting against me. I apologize for forgetting that you backed off the "aggregate account" idea. It just is not possible for me to accurately sort out who has how many insults against me and who doesn't. I can't be on a stage like this with every sort of insult thrown my way, and be necessarily rough with an idiot here and then switch gears to be nice and gracious to the next poster who is also challenging me as strong as they can. You just cited my getting a little rough with you, but have you ever taken note of the daily barrage of hoots, jeers, lies, exaggerations, and belittling that I must delete from my eyes HUNDREDS of time per month, maybe even per week. Do you have any ideas how we can discuss these things where it is the ideas that are discussed? Can I come to you to complain when the insult atmosphere reaches a high? Do you care only about how you are handled? Or do you want to get some work done, where you simply endure some minor roughness that may crop up? All I can say is most posters lately are really good at dishing it out, but when I get Righteously Pi$$ed everyone is suddenly a wallflower and shocked that I would fight back against all the crap.

You are one of the Snappers, like Penworks, with black & white thinking only. You need to get more Biblical and less Hollywood in your expectations of God's servants. Tell me, have you ever seen a "real deal" since your snap from infatuation to hate? Why are you SO unable to dump your childish image of purity, and think of VPW as a real human brother? You are obviously not the Hollywood Real Deal yourself, but if you believe in Jesus, he said you are real enough and deal enough to do all that he did and greater. Just like you can be in an out of fellowship a bunch of times per day, VPW, your brother in Christ, had that same privilege of always coming back to God, getting totally forgiven and cleansed, and then get some of His work done. You harbor a silly impossible image, that you expected of VPW, and then go against your commandments from John's First Epistle to love your brother, VPW. You are as spiritually immature as Penworks was when she was 19 years old falling in love with VPW even before she took the class. Both falling in love with the real deal, and falling in hate when supposed real deal disappoints are totally shallow immature perspectives. A walk that is out of fellowship one hour, and then back in fellowship the next hour is certainly no way to have a deep, sustained, trusting, relationship with God, but it is better than nothing. I see VPW getting up very soon after his falls, as the Word directs us all. Yes, he could have done much better in various seasons and years, had he accomplished more sustained fellowship. It is a tragedy for us all that he failed at times there. But to our great benefit, he had enough sustained fellowship from 1942 to 1985 to deliver to us the class and the collaterals that bring us to the Word like it has not been known since the First Century. */*/*/*/* You fail at sustained and rich fellowship at times also, YET God is always there when you try again to walk in love and in powerful service to others. Have you even read the First Epistle of John lately? Do you cultivate love in your heart for VPW and are you thankful to God for the great good VPW did accomplish? Or are you sin oriented, and only able to see sin when you look at his direction? */*/*/*/*/* Have you given up on the real deal being possible? You should. Be happy with what service does get done for the True God, even if performed by people who fall short of your "real deal" standards. Include your self in there as a servant to others like Jesus. There was only one real deal I know of, and that is Jesus Christ.

I see most of them coming here to read in the future, maybe after we area dead. I pray you will someday be able to see your way through this thicket and remember the good parts in PFAL where God got through to you, learn to set aside the bad parts, and see more of the good then ever before. I am praying that you may someday in that reading audience for a while and that it helps you to come back to PFAL and celebrate it unencumbered by all the crap of the past.

Well I went to the video and watched exactly how he held his hands to mimic old fashioned scales, like you see being held by the blindfolded statue in many courthouses. . He starts off with both palms facing up, hands 12 inches apart, and at the same height. One hand represents the Left seat of the see-saw or the Left tray in the balance. He says that is needs. The other hand represents the Right seat of the see-saw or the Right tray in the balance. He says that is wants. Both needs and wants are a parallel in this picture he says. As he says it, his hands are at the same level. . . Then he moves the NEEDS hand down lower, and the WANTS hand up higher. He then says that is where a person’s needs are low, but the wants are high, and they are not parallel. (this corresponds to James and asking amiss) */*/*/* Ok, that is what I was describing more abstractly earlier with the see-saw. I totally agree that this use of the word “parallel” is a lame pedagogical device. He may have done it better in earlier live classes. He may have done it better in PFAL’77. That would be fun for the friendly WayGB agent to check out. It is also the case that VPW’s editors convinced VPW that it was lame, and they got him to change the book a little to make it better for transmitting the ideas. A few of the appearances of “parallel” were changed in book to “balanced.” */*/* NO ONE has any trouble with the main idea that needs and wants must be BALANCED. That is simple as pie, and no one should have missed the idea itself. But using the word “parallel” required a much better hand mimic job than the one he did in the film. People are just not that familiar with old fashioned scales. */*/* When I asked why did no one ask leadership about the word “parallel” earlier, I was NOT referring to earlier here at GSC. I meant when you first took the class, why did you not ask about “parallel” THEN? How many years were you feeling good about the class and all, but never asking about “parallel” until GSC happened years later? Probably one reason that none of you questioned the word “parallel” earlier is because you did not NEED to !!! You got the main idea fine way back then. It is only now that you are howling that the WHOLE needs and wants teaching was lame. It wasn’t. It’s your attitudes that towards it that are lame. The use of “parallel” was lame also, but fixed. */*/* I was mocked and made fun of for my frequent lists of questions I had for leaders. A few leaders liked it and I bonded with them. You could have gotten a lot of answers back then. You folks constantly complain and criticize and mock what you do not understand in the class and collaterals. In some other more removed areas, you all do have some valid complaints and criticisms. But the more you mock the class with ignorant punches, the more I am able to see through your lame mocking and insulting of me.

That is because you are unwilling to rise up to see that VPW could have been like a Solomon or a David who had sin and when they were in sin they were bad spokesmen, and when they walked with God they were good spokesmen. EVERY SINGLE ONE of God's spokesmen blew it in one way or another and God still worked with them when they would listen and obey. You can thank God He still works with you in spite of you loving SOMETHING more than Him on multiple occasions.

I got this weight scale explanation in the 1970s. It was taught to me by a smart grad not in the Corps. Why did you not find this parallel thing long ago?

These are valid assessments from me. If you want to see insults look at what is directed at me all the time here. But hate makes people stupid, so you may not be able to do this.

Maybe I haven't been specific enough on the parallel thing. Evidently no one has a clue what I mean, and I guess all the time of their stay at TWI they never looked into this item. When you have an old fashioned scale to weigh things, it looks a little like a child's see-saw. You then put the thing to be weighed on the Right seat of the see-saw, and its weight pushed the see-saw down on that side all the way to the ground. So now the see-saw is at an angle where the Right seat is at 4 o'clock, and the Left seat is at 10 o'clock. Then you put a small weight on the Left seat and watch what happens. If nothing happens then you put a little more weight on the Left seat. Eventually there will be enough weight on the Left seat to push that seat down and the Right seat up. When you get just the right amount of weight on the Left seat, the see saw will balance, with the Left seat at 9 o'clock and the Right seat at 3 o'clock. The weight on the Left seat EQUALS the unknown weight on the Right seat. The two weights are BALANCED, and the see-saw is PARALLEL to the ground. This is what VPW was doing with his arms: positioning them to illustrate this. One arm represented the level ground, and the other arm represented the balanced scale weighing the needs on one side and the wants on the other side. His arms were parallel, representing the needs and wants being parallel to the ground or balanced. */*/* Now I have questions. Where WERE your heads when you took the class? Where WERE your heads when you entered the Corps and re-studied this stuff? Why did you not ever question "parallel" long ago? I think this is, once again, indicative of how poorly you all understood the class you now hate and criticize in nearly complete befuddlement on issue after issue. Hate makes people stupid.

I just want to encourage you to get you needs and lusts parallel.

You are forgetting that those gifts financed his family's trip to Egypt, staying there a year or two, and then the trip from Egypt to Nazareth. Safe travel in those days was expensive. If any was left over, Joseph still needed to build his business from scratch, another very costly item.

They are when you add in the body language where VPW positioned his arms to ILLUSTRATE how this parallel thing meant balanced. I answered this in more detail with Nathan a few minutes ago. You both are hung up on vocabulary when a little more is involved.

You are right about that. But you are wrong to use the word parallel alone in your comment. You obviously did not get understanding when you read what I wrote about this. I will repeat for you here. Dr used the word PARALLEL with illustration with his arms to indicate balance. The use of that word along with his body language in his older live classes communicated the same idea that balance conveys. I am noticing over and over a persnickety and inappropriate insistence on exactly lining up of simple words, but ignoring the richer lining up of ideas. I think your brain is too devoted to dismissing my credibility, and not enough brain cells are left over to accurately understand what I write. You are looking for Gotch Hooks and ignoring ideas. This explains a lot why you did not get it when you took the class; all the wrong motives and too many distractions.

Not necessarily so. Peter's last words are about people being destroyed because they would not understand the Epistles of Paul. Paul was God's spokesman, yet there was MUCH damaging misunderstanding of what he meant.