Mike

Actually, it was VPW who went to San Francisco right after making the film class. If you can find any old SNS tapes from the weeks after he returned, and also just prior to the hippies coming to New Knoxville, you'll hear in the announcements VPW extolling the virtues of these strange beasts. He had to prepare all the rednecks in Ohio that this would be a good thing for the ministry. Most surviving tapes, though, are the "teaching only" type, with most announcements deleted. In 1977 VPW announced at lunch (I posted extensively on this event) that he had allowed a lot his leaders to wrongly convince him to re-do the class in PFAL '77. The POP paper is loaded with details of how VPW did not get his way, especially after 1982 and Craig's installation. When I started work at HQ in 1976 my co-worker (very long time grad) told me it was general older ministry leadership, and a lot of them, that were behind the hippie sterilization. So, I'm not at all convinced it was VPW who led that charge.

I took it as "euphemistic" after talking to Steve in 1990, and that VPW was giving Heefner another chance to line up with him. That is strong arm. I know VPW tolerated no compromise. We all knew that long before getting deeply involved. Saying "I accept your request for a leave of absence" is a way of saying "You're fired. HOWEVER you can come back." It's a euphemism. You can see this strong arm way of doing things in Jesus' handling of Peter and Judas. I think he was tougher on Peter. Jesus tolerated no compromises either, not on important issues. He was tough because he was right. When VPW was right, being tough on it was also right. Of course, "when he was right" doesn't fit at all into the Pure Evil paradigm.

Human memory, like human creative thought, is a fascinating thing. I remembered still more of Steve Heefner's request for a leave of absence. Steve told me in 1990 that he was broadsided by VPW's remark because he had made no such request for a leave of absence. What I saw from the audience in 1972 was VPW making this surprising announcement about Steve's leave of absence request, with Steve standing right there next to him. They then shook hands and Steve walked off the stage. I had known, even though I was new in the Word, that there were tensions between the two. Lots of people knew that. It was a pretty tough strong-arm tactic on VPW's part; powerful man versus powerful man. But it looked friendly, and it had the open hope that Steve would return when their conflict cooled down. However, he never did return. Jimmy Doop did return... a couple of times. I saw the hippie element being slowly but systematically removed from the ministry almost right after the 1972 Rock of Ages. I heard that a lot of the old timers were not happy with hippies, Rock music and such. As a hippie (or a wannabe), I never felt exploited by the ministry. It provided a service to me until I could provide it for myself and others. Then it went downhill fast.

Yes, the Jesus Freak movement was large and prior. It was largely emotionalism I thought. I couldn't trust them. I was there in the audience in Rye NY when VPW accepted Heefner’s resignation, but I was months out of my first class. Later when I did my own research in 1888-1998 I called Steve and Sandy Heefner for details. Then I also interviewed Jimmy Doop several times, and partied with him in San Diego, when he lived here in the early 90s. Long story there. He stayed with two of my grad friends here. For all the classes I attended, and/or was the electronics button pusher for, I paid close attention to the few cases where someone did not SIT. Early on I made it my business to go to those people and offer help. This happened approximately 8 times. In half the cases I was successful in helping them SIT days later. In the other half I quickly heard from them that they desired to not do it for various reasons. I respected their wishes. They had to WANT to do it. I took all this learning into volunteering to lead excellors’ sessions for the Intermediate class when it was run. Memory Correction: VPW accepted Heefner's request for a leave of absence, not a resignation.

I've had quite a few adventures myself these last ten years.

Word Wolf, the necessary nuances are missing in the versions. I'm thinking of leading people into SIT, and nobody gets missed. That was pretty much the standard for film classes; no one got missed. Versions and the denominations that produce them are not able to do this, nor were they able to penetrate the hippie counterculture in 1970s.

What survived were tattered remnants of the authoritative remnants. To a greater degree, the change in cultures and change in languages make the original authoritative understanding difficult. The tattering of the remnants (from actual cutting, rotting, and burning of the materials) combine with this to degrade their authority. Enough survived, though, to inspire others to look for more. They found lots and put lots together. Much more accumulated by VPW's time, but there were many textual variations and many cultural and attitudinal changes that were so confusing and non-authoritative by 1942 that VPW wanted to quit the ministry. Someone needed to put it all together with the right attitude and perspective to get in sync with God like it hasn't been done since the first century, which is... authoritatively. But I've been through this ten or eleven times now for 16 years now. I'm tired of typing all this out over and over. The main reason I came onto this thread was Bolshevek's odd straying from the usual party line here. I thought maybe he was leading me on, or baiting me. If so, it worked. I wanted to talk about new things here, where I can expand my knowledge. This thread started off very different. Some of those opening ideas for a page or two were very fascinating to me. I'm very into how the brain and mind work. It's fascinating. original thought is a delicate idea. Stealing a line from John Lennon: I GOT BLISTERS ON MY FINGERS!

Actually, I found it enlightening. I had heard quotes like that before, and I agree with them. Indeed, the idea of copyrights and patents IS in the US Constitution, and NOT in the Amendments. The oldness I was referring to on the timing of VPW's beginnings was NOT in regard to the sophistication of the age. The oldness I was referring to was a simpler time and place, involving a tiny number of people. It's not at all the electronically connected of today. The book market is global now, and so is academia. So many universities have their basic courses free on the Internet. When rural farmers came to town and church in 1040s and 50s they were not thinking of city life and bookmarkets and academic officialness. They are thinking of spiritual nurture for themselves and family. Same with this old hippie in 1971. *** For all the Gamaliels out there, here's a comparison: The only reason anything written in the first century survived is because some very small number of people cherished it during the first couple hundred years, and God cherished it, and it got passed it on against all odds. Both rejections of Paul and then persecutions kept that number of people small. If PFAL is as cherished out there by others as I say it is, then it too will get passed on. If not then not.

I'm exhausted with this subject. But is a done deal. The books are out there, paper and digital. I think they will bless people who find them.

Actually, it's more like an accident of history. It evolved over a 45 year span. I never got analytical about it while it was happening. It might also be lazy. I'm getting old and I only wan to fight certain battles. This one is history. The gems did get collected together, and uniquely IMO, and they did get distributed, against all odds IMO. So here I am living out my lazy semi-retirement enjoying the benefits. It's done. The books did get distributed world wide and on the world wide web. We'll see who benefits.

As I explained earlier, I was only bringing that up to if there are limits of everyone's insistence on always obeying man's laws. I totally admit that in most cases nowadays, the way VPW collected together gems than helped thousands (including me) would not be acceptable. In the days he did this over 60 years ago, and in the place he did this I think it was acceptable. It was in God's family, far away from the marketplace of real books and academia. I see an exception there. Even if I'm wrong, I still benefit from the gems.

That's pretty much what I had in mind.

Has anyone here ever read "God's Smuggler" by Brother Andrew? I heard years after reading it that maybe some was not so factual. But that aside..... when I read it I felt that he was doing the right thing even though it was against the law. From posts here am I to believe most here would condemn as against God's moral law not only Brother Andrew, but the American Revolution as well?

I only gave it to grads. After 1995 they abandoned it.

BTW, in 1988 I told my area leader, limb leader, and Howard Allen what we were doing with the class to punish the BOT and never need to trust them again. There was no secrecy. It was out in the open. I'm so thankful to God that VPW collected together what he did, and then was able to deliver it to me when I needed it most.

I did not say "rural" people ... claim they're exempt from copyright. I claim that there are differing sets of priorities. For someone hungry for spiritual nurture, the bookmarket and academia are NOT important. Bookworms and academics always think copyrights and citations are important. That's their little world. Maybe it's yours too. Rural folks and desperate college dropout hippies (like I was) do NOT care one twit about the priorities of bookworms and academics. Rural folks who want to stay out of the city usually are not inclined to the academics. There is an antagonism against city slickers that persists to this day in the country. The priorities of the big city are viewed as totally askew. On Sunday in the country, and 5 days per week for my first twig, the business of citations and copyrights and intellectual property was considered (compared to spiritual growth) just plain STUPID. And it really is. It was with great pride that I helped hundreds of other grads in 1988 to smash the copyright grip the Board of Trustees had on our lives and THRUST the film class and books into the public domain WHERE IT BELONGS.

Twinky, I was not belittling ME when I said I was glad that the books I first received were not cluttered with footnotes and academic stuffy carefulness. I was glad for the rural approach. My needs were not academia or mareketplace oriented one bit at all. What I thought was important was spiritual nurture FOR ME. I did not care one twit for the sources.

Right. They wanted to be that. They did grow considerably in that direction, but it peaked around 1985, falling short of the big city version. I'm not criticizing the sophistication of the farming community of early twi. It's just that the cares and concerns they had that were different than the big city. What was important to them was spiritual nurture in the family church setting. It was not the setting of the big city bookstores or the universities, where citing sources and originality are important.

Job 1:5 NIV And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually. There's a reason this line is placed so prominently at the beginning.

They didn't have the connectedness we have now. They hardly had any TV. Just radio. Everything was far away from everything else. Even phone calls were expensive for long distance. It was farm country. The markets and the academics were in the cities. People traveled short distances to go to church. I'm seeing this in my mind's eye as I look back at life in the 50s. I remember some of it. Stores closed at night and weekends.

I also am seeing clearly how in the 1940s and 50s the rural pastor ships that existed were quite non-overlapping. There was not a competing market that they engaged in for people or readers. Those in the circles VPW hung out in were not competing with each other. I see them as assisting each other. This world was far from the book markets and academia.

The more I think on it.... BG taught his classes to ministers, right? I'll bet at the end of his class he told his students to go out and teach others as you have been taught. VPW did just that. However BG was angry that VPW changed "gift" to " manifestation." BG WAS ANGRY THAT VPW DIDN'T COPY HIM ACCURATELY ENOUGH! We got to check out that rumor. BG Leonard visits New Knoxville..... 1986? Who remembers?

These are all valid points GoldStar. Some of them I've made here in the past. I answered your question earlier, but maybe too briefly. I mentioned that BG Leonard came to the ROA around 1986 and that he was very angry that TWI taught that SIT was a manifestation and not a gift. This I heard a couple times, but it was never verified to me. What I implied in this was that BG seemed to know a lot of what we were doing, but THAT point of deep doctrine is what that rumor had him angry at. No one said anything about copyrights. It was DOCTRINE that BG was angry about. I just thought that was interesting.