Mike

TWI was never supposed to be a democracy or ever held up as one. That would make it totally ineffective. I'm glad it was a (somewhat) benign dictatorship for a while. It had to be to get the job done. Is the US military a democracy? Should it be?

I know I wasn't projecting. Others here are prone to think alike. I'm not at all impressed with such unanimity. I still think it's a good guess. Did you yet answer me as to why you DID ask me the 2 scripture questions? Were you meekly seeking learning from me? I'm running out of guesses. If you did answer I missed it in this flurry. Please point it out, but (please) not with a fresh point cluster. Did you answer me at why you could not predict my answer to the scripture questions? Did you answer me at why you had no comments on my answers, but went straight for the minor point of projection instead? Being able to predict my answer should have not been that hard. To see this, please go back and read your questions and my answers again. There was nothing surprising in my answer. It contained several things I had posted many times. Are you immune to projection? I think you projected projection onto me. If I got a handful of votes in agreement will you seek projection therapy? I'm half joking here.

The Pure Evil model negates all places where the OUTER workings of the ministry WERE pretty. There was great good that ministry delivered to new people. YES, the inner workings went total crap eventually. But that also happened to every city where the Word thrived in the first century. I've heard that it only took on the average of ten years for that to happen. TWI did pretty good by those standards.

Please allow me to address one point at a time. Why do you insist on smashing so many things together? To further eliminate multiple points I will deliberately overlook the word "stealing" because I think you already know my answer. If you don't I'll pray for you. So, in essence you wrote: "...explain to me the good that can come from "discovering" others works ..." Benefit #1 - The many sources of VPW had some error mixed in with extremely good points. God's revelation to VPW was not "divine dictation" but primarily revelation of what exactly was good in their works and and what was error in their works. Benefit #2 - The good points in VPW's sources would have NEVER made it to me or you. I'll bet my life on that. They would have been lost in churchianity and eventually nullified. None of those earlier teachers had the wherwithall and technology and chutzpah to face down the adversary resident in all churches and distribute those points around the world to Baby Boomers fed up with religion. BTW, it’s this benefit that inspired my substitution above of “discovering” for “stealing.” Get it? Dis-covering ? *** Now, because I have a little time I go through your use of “stealing.” God owned the whole world, but gave it to Adam, and Adam gave it to the adversary. But God still owned the revelations He gave to VPW’s sources. God gave VPW permission to use the revelations and the guidance to steer away from stuffy, churchy, formal citations that would not be needed by new students, clutter up their learning experience, and expose them to the errors in those other writings. I must have posted the above points about 25 times here if not more. Did you see them? Do you remember them now? Should I pray for you memory?

Hi Grace, When I post, the multiple responses, each with multiple points, makes that circumspect walk impossible, unless I limit my posts to staying away from everyone's major hot buttons. That's very difficult with the volume of points. Avoiding hot buttons is all the more impossible when my main message is totally in opposition to the main message constantly being perfected here after almost 2 decades, which is the Pure Evil model of VPW. *** The great good that came to grads (mostly non-Corp) was like what no organized teaching had been able to produce since the first century. That fact is totally annihilated here, and none are sensitive to the contradiction this manufactures: great praise and respect is often heaped to VPW's teachers and sources, but when they appear in written PFAL they must be opposed as Pure Evil. That is total Bullsheet that no one here wants to confront. SURE there is some good here given to TWI captives and refugees, but that good will NOT help them with other things in life, especially if they deprogram themselves (at GSC encouraging) away from tons of that great good they did get from PFAL. Of course, this applies not to TWI newbies after 1995 who never saw the PFAL film class. I don't see anyone here developing or pointing to any teachers that seriously threaten the devil's status quo grip on religion. If anyone thinks there IS a ministry or minister out there that can do kind of the great good PFAL did (minus Corps interference) start a thread and debate one candidate for great good against another. Imagine that: a debate here on the great good of certain ministries and people! Bur instead of brainstorming and searching for such truths, the Pure Evil model here demands that great effort go into HIDING the great good that is in PFAL. *** I posted some theories recently of psychologists who are noticing in the political landscape how people there seem to have a great hunger for villainous enemies. I started noticing this same thing in my friends in the spoken word Open Mic scene I engaged in from 2002-2008. I once did an experiment to look very closely at all they wrote and spoke at one point during an election at that time. A certain candidate suddenly appeared whom nobody knew. I watched it take exactly one day and a half for them to figure out how to scream “villain” at the top or their literary lungs. I see the same human dynamics working here. Like I said to my political friend lately on Facebook, this is not good for anyone’s mental and physical health. I’m not worried about my health; it’s for yours (plural) that I’m recommending changes. My poet friends had no concept of the truth that you can’t fight evil with more evil. Is that well known here? *** I have a model where the great good of PFAL is quite distinct and different from the character flaws of VPW. I think I’m the only one here that can say that some certain teachings will help us all greatly. Does anyone here (who still believes in Jesus Christ) witness aggressively any more? If so WHAT do you witness? Pre-1942 churchianity? Churchianity with a New Age twist? Is your work threatening the adversary’s kingdom in any way? Do you get great opposition to such work? Do the people who buy what you witness get deliverance and proclaim great thankfulness to you? Does anyone here still get the benefits of SIT and still ABLE to teach others?

Hi spectgrum49, Thank you for your patience. You’re right about us not knowing each other. That holds for me regarding most people here, as well, and it does impede some communications. No need for apologies. In order to post here I have to be very able to dodge derision as well as distractions. I’ve got a very thick skin on these issues, and you didn’t come close to being offensive. I wish you and others were NOT so sure that I notice everything here. There was once a time here when I did do that, but I’m older now and have less time. When I post one idea with some necessary context, it usually sparks a round of many challenging postings on every possible detail I mention. I get very swamped these days here, very fast. A few days ago it was raining, and for me that means a window cleaner holiday, so I had time and dared to post a little, then quickly got overwhelmed with multiple posters, each posting on multiple points. I sometimes have to look for the shortest, or most important point to respond to if time even permits that. And then THAT response generates another round. and complaints on the ones I missed. I’m looking not so much for forgiveness regarding all the posts I don’t respond to or even don't see, just understanding. Is there anyone else here who gets into quandaries like this? *** This is something I posted on Facebook to a friend who posts strong political memes that are very much against a certain political character, who’s name I will omit here. This is not a political statement; a psychological one. It could hold for almost any political character, so I blotted out the irrelevant name. But more important it fits well here too. He posted this big flashy meme: “The first thing in the morning I do is check if xxxx has stroked out, died, quit, or has been arrested. Does that make me evil.” The next person posted: “Same here! Sad but true..” I was next with: “MUCH sadder than most think. Could be bad for your health, a negative diet like that, especially first thing in the morning. Why not find a positive person who can do good? Support them. Brainstorm for them. Convince others for them. I think all this negative focus against one person will devolve and can only result in MORE negativity. Less and less good people will be elected. Good MUST be developed and installed or xxxx is only going to be replaced by someone worse. There are plenty of worse people to get in there, but try to name ONE good person. It's hard.” *** I think the same goes here. If people here would AGAIN take up the more lonely path of promoting positivity, instead of magnifying and perfecting an image of Pure Evil, then I think everyone’s health will be in less jeopardy. I think all this negativity hurts people. It’s way overboard IMO. That is another reason I must limit my reading and posting. I wonder if any real good is sought by others here. I don’t hear much of that kind of abundance coming from any hearts. (links welcome) It’s easy to be negative and hateful. It’s HARD to be positive and magnify it.

Ok. I've made mistakes before. Then tell me, why DID you ask me about those two scriptures? And then, why did you not comment on my response to the two verses, minus my guessing your motives?

Honest Officer! I find that nursing one beer for almost two hours on a dancefloor does not slow me down. High velocity is essential in hot Rock n Roll dancing. Right now I'm at my limit of two glasses of wine in 3 hours of typing. It slows me down in typing too. You must not be a drinker to think my posts can be done buzzed. Any buzz kills efficiency. There are too many details to consider. I'd be nailed left and right in my posts here if I was drinking too much. No one here would feel the need to negate me if I inefficiently assaulted some of the fundamental beliefs here. I'd be ignored. Maybe a tiny buzz is good for bedtime, but that's all. I get headaches too easily when major buzzed. It's almost 2 am now, so nighty night. :)

When you asked me the questions it was because you thought they would trip me up. That means you predicted I had no good answer. You prediction was wrong. I note that you did nothing here to refute my answers to the Proverbs questions. I think you could have predicted right it if you were willing to wrap your head around my thesis, temporarily, for the logic of it. I also see other posters doing this, often.

Goodbye, again.

Read.

Prov 16 Arrogance aimed at religion and tradition and error was not what Solomon was talking about. I want a leader who calls the BS in religion with great conviction. Naturally to a believer in such religion that LOOKS like arrogance. Oh sure, he could have plenty of sin arrogance at times, but not in the written teachings. It was filtered out there. God and many others helped him. *** Prov 11 VPW had many counselors and advisors. Sometime they talked him into the right decisions and sometimes they talked him into the wrong decisions. If he happened to get a revelation on an issue, then he told them to get lost. Uncle Harry told me this is how Board of Trustee meetings went. He said they often fought like cats and dogs, but if Vic said "thus saith the Lord" they shut up. *** Rocky, I think the reason you couldn't predict this answer I gave is because you feel you can not lower yourself to even consider what I say a little. You reveal your hand here. Try listening with understanding instead of resistance and you'll understand this better. You have the ability to temporarily PUT yourself into my argument, yet you're afraid to. Every serious High School debate team member learns to PUT themselves into an argument they don't believe to develop a flexible debating mind. You can do this. I think you're afraid to even consider what I say. errata: In "Try listening with understanding instead of resistance and you'll understand this better." The phrase "listening without understanding" was changed to "listening with understanding"

Maybe you missed my recent confession as to WHY I practiced the Art of Dodging here, and pretty well I might add, back in 2002. . It was to get my message out undeterred. I continued this technique all the way up to about two months ago when I gave up my hard hitting distribution campaign. I'm a lot more open to considerations now, but I still maintain my position.

You seem to be a researcher. Please consider the differences: (1) seen them ALL (2) long before you did (3)and I've FINALLY made up my mind. I can budge on the word "all" there. If someone shows me facts I am NOT yet aware of then some re-thinking can be done on my part. I have already done some of this since I wrote that in 2002. I've been at this a very long time, I was lucky to get a LOT of facts that none knew here, and I was sheltered from a lot of the BS of the Corps.

GVC, your mind is all ready made up. Please don't let me confuse you with any facts.

Not rationalize. If VPW expressed the kinds of things Ralph asked me about then I see them as IRRATIONAL. He wasn't Jesus Christ you know. That means flaws, even flaws you don't like. IRRATIONAL flaws. What you see in me is forgiveness. Maybe you can learn from it.

This (the early life pruning process) one of the most fascinating things in science I know of, YET it's still in limbo after 25 years. If I get any documentation soon. I'll post it.

No. When he lost members and donations it cost a lot. It matters not if someone "owns" an organization if the major followers leave, ESPECIALLY if it's a tiny organization. If he really had a 1942 revelation then the ministry SHOULD be about him and him giving it to us. That is NOT a democracy. It was the revelation to him that it was all about. Now, if he didn't get a revelation in 1942 and the promised followups, THEN you all are totally right-on and I should join you. But if it WAS a genuine revelation then you should join me. It has NOTHING to do with VPW or his sin or his successes. It all revolves around whether that was a genuine revelation. God can give a revelation to anyone He wants to. He does not have to follow OUR rules and principles for selecting ministers. Spectrum49's brilliant post above illustrates some of these principles we must use. In fact I think God delights in confounding our traditions and man made religion in some of His ways. Remember Isaiah 55, that His ways are not our ways. I see him selecting VPW as the recipient and the teacher of this revelation to confound those of us who insist on man made religion. It filters out the less devoted to truth from those who hunger for it above all man's ways and traditions and adulation. From the benefits I have received from written PFAL, and from the providential shielding I had from ALL things Way Corps, I vote GENUINE.

Bravo!

Some major donors and a lot of others pressured so hard to move HQ elsewhere than New Knoxville around 1959. VPW decided on New Knoxville and lost supporters and followers. For their first fellowship there it was decided that 30 faithful followers was going to be enough. It was a struggle and there were major losses over it. In that sense it was not his ministry. He was the strongest force, but the only one.

It's interesting how you assume this of me. Are you immune to it?

Was I wrong on the Heefner dismissal? It was a shock to us all, so lots of room for memory distortions. Memory is a funny thing, I know. *** Can you how me in print (or tape) where VPW publically taught such things? Yes, I've heard in private he could be pretty rough. Can't we all be at times and in some contexts? He did warn us in GMWD to not follow leaders when they are wrong. How did you react to such things if you heard such things directly from his mouth? Was it often? Did he build on it? Why did it never make it into print? I can see him veering off at times (we all do) and saying or doing stupid things, especially things that may have been planted at a very early age. *** There is a neuro-physiological phenomenon I learned about 25 years ago. I learned it literally from some of the world’s top brain scientists, but I’ve never yet seen it in any popular literature. You may have heard of it. Humans and all mammals go through an early life "pruning" period where brain cells or brain cell connections are pruned away in order to fine tune the new brain to it's immediate environment. I heard about this at UCSD but never saw it in any popular magazines ever since. I don't know the proper buzz words, but "pruning" was used back then. I have other people I can ask, but saw an opportunity with you. This pruning process is quite amazing. It is the mechanism behind two seemingly unrelated phenomena: (A) the persistence of foreign accents, and (B) the non-rascist feeling some people have and describe as "all Asians look alike." Since I heard this face-to-face from someauthorities in the field in the 90s, I have no doubts to it’s veracity, even though I’ve have heard nothing of it since. I've tried googling it, but my skills there are poor and I only have one buzzword to describe it. Something worth learning. I feel this phenomenon is one of the MOST important things to know when is comes to children. It is the basic mechanism for many things besides the two noted above. I'm somewhat surprised that after 25 years this has not made a big splash in all child related fields. But from it I have learned to think somewhat differently (a little more forgiveness) about those plagued with genuine racism. I’m sure VPW had lots of childhood impressions he struggled, and he grew up in a time when lots of that stuff was floating around, unchecked. Overcoming the effects of this pruning-learning is very difficult. The persistence of a foreign accent is one of the explicit products of this pruning-learning. The great difficulty everyone has in shedding an accent from a radically different culture of upbringing is pretty univerasal. If you or anyone else has some pertinent buzz words, that would help me a lot. I can contact my scientist friends, but they have a line of grad students ahead of me and a large stack of items in their inbox.

I think you left out some important information. Here’s how I’d re-write it: In the dull, natural 5-senses world, where no true authority whatsoever prevails, compromise means both sides give a little to reach an agreement. Probably, both sides have some things wrong and some things right. However, with genuine spiritual leaders, compromise means what's right with God is the way we do it, and what's not at all contradictory to that might be negotiable. Addendum: Do you think there is a record of Jesus Christ compromising? In the Epistles we are told to "...let our moderation be known..." and we were taught that moderation meant YIELDINGNESS on small matters. So, in a sense we had the two words re-defined a little: no compromising was for big matters and moderation for small matters. I always saw young newbies pick up on "compromise" being a negative word, when it is not treated that way in the general population.

This was a big beef I had with VPW. I understood why he took that stand, but it was never fine tuned, and it was needed. Thousands of grads grew up with a bad taste associated with the word "compromise." It was never explained to them that sometimes compromise is good and essential. I wonder how many grads think the Missouri Compromise was a bad thing, yet still think the Constitution and it compromised bicameral make-up is God-inspired. Errata: I got the name wrong. The Missouri Compromise was later. I can't find the name of the bicameral compromise. Was that called the Great Compromise? I forget.

No. He struggled some for control. There were major disagreements prior to 1967, where he did not have complete control. The move to New Knoxville was a major battle with major losses. The hippies didn't start coming till late '68 and '69. It grew constantly up to the 1972 ROA. Then the early hippie sterilization started as leaders were fitted for suits and ties. The ultimate non-hippie was LCM and by the early 80s he was the example how leadership had to be. I bought his leadership all the way until the POP. I could see that Geer had manipulated him. I liked Geer in the 70s. I knew him a little at Rye NY before he went Corps. He helped me greatly with something once. I was sad at how two of my heros went sour. I visited a TWI twig somewhere in the 90s because Donnie Fugit was a special guest. I wore a tie dye shirt and he was ecstatic upon seeing it.