Patriot

Look, I am definitely a man who respects and almost always accepts a sincere apology. Heck, I've had to give my fair share over the years, and probably will. Still, I believe that apologies should be given because it is the right thing to do, and not to win back others who left. That seems too much like the proverbial "Trojan Horse." And, if now the innies are apologizing to the outies, how sincere are they really? They had to come up in an official STS teaching, by an approved minister, before people had their marching orders to go apologize? Not to be insulting, but are the twi rank-and-file folks really that slow? Sheep to the extent of not doing it until led to by an official? So yes - I would accept a sincere apology. Yet I will have doubts about what constitutes "sincerity." I'll be holding my breath, in a patriotic fashion (turning red, white, and blue) while I await the golden apology.

1. The BoD stands by its "no debt" doctrine 2. Coordinators have great latitude in planning and teaching. (Well, maybe; I have not been an HFC for three years. Sure seems to be a locked-in situation, though). 3. As for giving $ to manifest spiritual power, LC/RC said he's never taught $10 of ABS = $10 of revelation. (From him that is true, but the new foundational class syllabus includes LCM's articles on "The Tithe Doth Still Supply" and "The Spiritual Abundance of Abundant Sharing". So TWI standard doctrine hasn't changed though the LC/RC doesn't seem to agree with it). 4. The last RoA was physically dangerous as gang members and other "threats" were admitted to HQ grounds without any screeening or supervision. 5. TWI is expanding. Its growth is not dynamic because of splinter groups who attract folks who once would have come to TWI. I have to handle a few of these, since they are so off: 1. My question to the RC/LC - does "he" also stand with that "no debt" doctrine? My guess is no, but must. 2. Latitude - they are soo free to teach to the needs of their people, as long as the teachings are based on Way Rag, or STS teachings. A friend of mine still (sadly) in told me how she was reproved for not bringing her Way Rag on Way Rag night at fellowship. And since everything coming from HQ is so boring, redundant, and trite, so are the HF's 3. Interesting way of putting it: $10 worth of revelation 4. WRONG WRONG WRONG! They did NOT can the ROA because of gangs and other threats. The gangs of youth sex in the tents was in ROA 94. LCM talks about how they were not at ROA 95 in his Exodus teachings. 95 had the least amount of trouble. They canned the ROA because the Corps were excluded from the meetings due to work....or at least that was LCM's statement. So the RC/LC has it wrong, again. 5. What a pathetic joke!!!! Yeah, our ministry is making a big impact with expansion!!!! The only thing is, they do not join us but somehow get sidetracked to some other ministry. OK, you ALL must admit, the rationalization for this guy to actually come up with this thinking to explain why their outreach efforts and their growth numbers are fruitless......beyond insane rationalization!!!! Tell me a Biblical occurance where Jesus, or the apostles in Acts spoke the Word, operated the power of God, and people were somehow won....but went with someone else's movement? OMG!!! As I wrote in a previous thread, the "Prevailing" they talk about in Acts 19:20 is supposed to (according to their own teachings) reflect the EXPANSION results, not the personal growth. Therefore - by their fruits (or the absence thereof) they are known! Funny. On the news tonight they were talking about some polygamist cult "prophet" who is on the FBI's top 10 most wanted list. As goofy as he is, they report that he has somewhere between 8,000-15,000 followers along the border counties of Utah and Arizona. Hey, even he has more followers than the expansion results of "God's true household" of twi. Pathetic! And the excuses are insulting to God! At least get honest and admit something is wrong since God isn't adding to their church daily (except 12 year olds for the class). Excuses and rationalization - definitely not "founding father" style of patriotism!

Yeah, Paula was (is) a great lady! Did I hear correctly that she moved to Texas? For anyone in the Austin, TX area, I thought I heard from other sources that's where she ended up settling down. I hope she is doing well wherever she is. If anyone does know anthing, please do post it. I would also like to know.

Not sure if anyone noticed, but Freud or Jung haven't posted since post #74 on page 4. :blink: Hasn't detered anyone, has it?

Personally, I'd like to give credit to where credit is due. Many of those young adults were very articulate, well versed, intelligent, not afraid of discourse, etc. I think that showed much for the way their parents brought them up (I know one of them - good parents). And, in addition, IMO, most of the current "rank and file" followers are really good, decent, honest people. Heck, if I had a bunch of rental properties, I would be glad to rent to them. They'll definitely need them (generally speaking, of course) Listen, for most of those committed young people, talking down TWI is like talking down "Mama." They'll defend "her" honor until the last breath. "Plagerism" - they could honestly give a hang. In their minds, there are arguments on both sides, and they could care less who said things first. They just know that they learned it from twi...period. Most of the things we still discuss (e.g. Donna's lunch rantings, etc.) I was ACTUALLY there for, live. These young adults were 10+ years younger than now, and knew basically nothing. NOW, although it is remarkably boring, there is no yelling, slobbering, public pronouncements of "stand with us or die." So of course they'll think you're nuts. What is particularly evil is these things DID happen (adultery, destruction of marriages, etc.), and although they may not be happening now, no one ever dealt with things openly. They were swept under the rug, and everyone was told just to look to the future. One thing I get a kick out of is how these young adults say "I've been to every church out there." Yeah, right :blink: They went to a cousin's wedding ceremony, an uncle's funeral....maybe. But they never went searching churches for truth....especially if they were raised in twi!

Belle, Great point regarding the Monkeyhinds being asleep, and uncaring about the evident evil. My take, in the manner of twi's own teaching on spirits of bondage. They make you afraid to take a stand for God. For most of twi's Way Corps who did see the evil, yet never spoke up definitively, it was like the parents of the blind man who Jesus healed. Those parents were terrified to speak up and say Jesus healed their son, because they didn't want to get kicked out of their cultural society by the Pharisees. Same is true for the Monkeyhands and others in leadership positions...especially PAID positions. Terrified that LCM would do to them as he did to John Shoenheit (sp), and others who did confront LCM. Here they were, twi's clergy and Way Corps, who were taught about this stuff, yet never recognized it from their MOGFOT. Fear, fear fear....it sucks! :( After caving into the fear, that's when I believe those folks just got glossed over - didn't care, not outraged, and rarely saw things

[i also remember getting concerned when things shifted from the integrity of the Word to the integrity of the ministry (something lcm started but rosie continued.) Yeah Penguin, that is that subtle morphing process. If God is his Word[A] (John 1), and "the ministry is the Word [C]& the Word is the ministry",....... If A=B, and B=C, then A=C. The ministry becomes their God to which they worship. That's why you hear Rosie at times say "Protect the ministry", etc. A church, or a ministry, is supposed to be a means, a vehicle to HELP get you to the destination (God), not be the cultish destination.

To those posting on this thread: I've appreciated seeing some sort of time put to your specific incidents. For those who indicate "about 2 years ago" or "recently" it illustrates to those who may be lurking that twi isn't "kinder and gentler" or "we don't do that anymore." For those who share that such incidents occurred over a decade ago, or longer, it shows to those who may still see what you saw, the rotten habits and practices have been around longer than just since LCM's "confession" of an affair. Thanks for your posting! Again, specific incidents or situations that were the turning point thinking all was good with twi, to "maybe I should be more careful" which was the first step to declaring independence.

Hey ILB! Wow, that's a pretty neat (and deep) elaboration! I'm actually writing out on index cards the characteristic (e.g. hatred), its basis and manifestation. The one on hatred, to me, was pretty revealing. Neat (but sad) example of the person who was a bully, but because he was so hurt prior. I think you probably can see much of that hurt and therefore hatred here on GSC. The "bully" was antagonistic, and expecting a flight or fight reaction, and how it broke the normal chain when someone just laughed at hatred manifested. Neat and thoughtful stuff! Then again, I would expect nothing less from you :) . Love you!

I believe that as often as He can, God endeavors to allow the light to gradually dawn. Even in the physical realm, it doesn't go from night to noon in an instant. So to it seems to have been for many of us who were involved with twi. Although Mrs. Patriot and I have not been out for a long time, I tell people that we were in the process of leaving (aka, the process of illumination) from twi for years. Its kind of like the founding fathers of the USA - they saw &$*#, they dealt with it the best they could....but one thing after another led them to the conclusion that they needed to declare independence from King George's kingdom. They had VERY SPECIFIC charges - how about you? Once upon a time, you were like everyone else inside - thinking it's God's ministry and everything was godly. What specific incident started the process for you to realize "this is not where I need to be anymore!"? Rather than being general, was there a specific incident? Maybe more than one? The more specific, the better, OK? :) Here is one I'll never forget for me: Way Corps received a fax / letter from J*hn R*pp, the Trunk coordinator, which I had the opportunity to read. It was a copy of a newspaper article about how CFF's Youth Advance had an outbreak of apparent food poisoning. I'll never forget the outrageous comment R*mproast wrote - "Rev. Rivenbark wanted to keep you updated. Bless, John." Both Mrs. Patriot and I were fuming mad Why did they need to "update" us on a sad incident which young people were sick? Was it so we could pray for those kids? No, it was to rejoice in iniquity - in other Christian's misery since they left twi. Heck, we never had ANY "updates" on LCM, or why Donna was still Corps, but only on CFF and Brad Th&rp. We realized then, that evil thinking ran very high, and the illumination began. BTW - They never sent another update on that situation, when it was NOT food poisoning, but rather a stomach bug being passed around, probably since so many were hugging each other Evil Rosalie & R*pp - rejoicing in iniquity and misery of other Christians is just so communistic...definitely not patriotic!

Rhino, I see you are talking and thinking financial strategy. Great! And those are strategies that make sense in certain areas, times, etc. (taxes, real estate values, etc.). They are not your attempt (as is twi) of forcing or punishing people for non-compliance to their own rules Maybe my mind is tired, but 2-3 families living together in one house to send more money.......back to Mexico.....Oh, I was thinking about illegal aliens, not way people. Yeah, I am tired.

Dearest Hope, Great points! I agree with the logic of not going so deeply in debt - living way beyond one's means - as a lifestlyle. It's a matter of being the ones in control vs being always out of control. Its just good logic. My biggest concern in this issue is their adamant stand on "No Debt" including a home. I appreciate Rhino sharing about saving up, but realistically, unless someone makes significant $, and then lives very moderately, how would most save up enough to pay for a home outright while paying rent (aka paying someone elses mortgage for them)? I know twi's response: "Believe God." So, in other words, the vast majority of their people are renting and living the lifestyle of bedouins and gypsies. Those people are not "believing God" are they? If they make it to retirement age, and must pay for housing or move into a relative's home, then, obviously they didn't "believe God" right? :blink: And when innies are elderly and without much substance on their deathbed, what will be the "inheritance" to be left to the next generation (as Belle so wonderfully noted)? Nothing. If they owned a house, and had nothing else, it could be an asset to be sold & used for seed money, or even lived in "rent free" for the children / grandchildren. All I know is this: If someone believes and applies Biblical principles in their lives, their lives are EVIDENTLY better for it. Speaking for myself, IMHO my marriage, family, work, health, mental attitudes, etc. are ALL better than the typical "worldly" examples, and I wouldn't trade my life with anyone else! I'm very blessed and content. However, for those in twi who rigidly apply the "No debt, for no reason, no how, no way" standard of twi is applied, the "world" is EVIDENTLY better off. Homes, businesses, college educations, reliable vehicles for work, etc. And, if the lord tarries, those people with homes paid off will be in the best situation for retirement. And to put the "cherry" on top, twi has never loved nor cared for their people to provide them with some ideas & help to achieve home ownership or prosperity. They are not a "how to" ministry - and they don't care. I pity their people....really. Just some thoughts.

Oh, hey...here is a challenge for anyone who has a friend / family member (my condolences) who is actually in twi's 401(k): When it first came out, and it was explained to twi's full time staff by the financial advisor, he made the comment that twi wouldn't allow their employees to have any international stock fund options. My challenge is, find out if they have since included an option for international funds (which should be a part of everyone's well diversified portfolio). The reason they wouldn't allow it was because LCM went on and on to the Staff about "proper" investments at a lunch. He spoke exkathedra (no offense) about how stocks were OK, but you should only invest in companies that you "believe" in, and "local" companies....maybe the kind that helped out twi. I know of people who, after he opined that, left lunch, and sold all their holdings outside of "local" Ohio companies or the telecom provider for HQ (Qwest at that time). So, even though it is a "kinder & gentler" twi, if they were really moving away from Mar - tin-dale's ravings, then they would have introduced an international fund option. Just wondering......

Although twi did finally start a 401(k) for their full time staff, they would only contribute to staffer's funds if they had been full time employees for at least 7-8 years. All the others not at that seniority could be in the 401(k), but would not get any employer contributions. What a great witness! TWI'ers don't own homes of their own, therefore must rent until they die, therefore must need a source of income, therefore must work to live. Gypsies, bedouins, and paupers! Wouldn't you like to be one of that number? :blink: And they wonder why they do the outreach (the activity), but see little expansion (the result - if genuine, from God).

Exxie - just enjoy yourself as you do a great job. Personally, I think that it is great if innies & outies can be friends. I would honestly LOVE to have friendship with some people inside. I wouldn't bash their "religion" - doctrines or practices either. It would be like insulting their mama, so why start a fight? Just enjoy!!!! :)

John, And you KNOW they would spin your prosperity as being a trick of the dayvil. They would call it a lying sign & wonder. Yeah, I "wonder" where all the physical / financial blessings are for those inside? God must have called them to not retire because being elderly greeters at WalMart & baggers at Winn Dixie is a great place to witness about God's prosperity to others. Well, that is "spiritual" prosperity....not the same :blink: I'm glad as heck that God (yes it was Him) blessed you, your business, etc. Isn't that what happened to Job? Prosperity....goes along with capitalism....which is very patriotic indeed!

Here's a question - in winter, when it snows, who is going to be on call 24/7 to be on their snow removal crews? The grounds department (aka a "lesser" job -no offense to anyone in or out who does landscape) may have to be working those other secular jobs. Especially if they are doing snow removal for those real jobs. Wouldn't it be great if the "full time" staff with "major" jobs had to do that? Singing ladies, grab a shovel! Rosie's walk needs a cleanin!

I'm getting a kick out of CK. She's probably not even 19, and is just getting her kicks out of saying something that will get everyone's dander up . It makes her feel important that a silly little line she says, especially if it is something she really doesn't believe, gets sooo many people talking, giving her consideration and parently advise, and upsetting others. Imagine if twi had a site that only extolled the virtues of VPW, LCM and the current salvation to the world that twi was bringing. Think about it.....wouldn't it be fun to infiltrate the conversations, yet still acting as if you were still an "innie" yet always questioned the teachings, leadership's rules, etc? Say something like "Yeah, I know about the snow on the holy gas pumps, but I dunno.....maybe Dr. Wierwille made that incident up?" Of course you would be lovingly chastised by the rest. So, keep doing it over and over. Frustrate their counsel, annoy them.....until you finally get another to say "well, maybe he has a point." How important would you feel? You wouldn't be able to contain yourself, and couldn't wait to tell your "outie" friends on GSC what happened. I think that is what CK is doing. So, I won't give her that satisfaction. Let her amuse herself. She isn't here for discourse, or for help. She is just trying to frustrate and annoy Self indulgence.....not very patriotic!

I was thinking (I'm known to do that every so often :) ), although I do not mind buying stocks or mutual funds that own cigarette, weapons, oil, or alcoholic beverage companies, I do respect investors who buy the mutual funds that specifically will not invest in these companies for investors who do not want to support these types of companies. They practice what they preach, and stand on their clear convictions. How sad that twi doesn't. If debt is wrong / sin, why do business with banks who lend money which enslaves others? :blink: Again, it is not just a safe place to put their money, but they use bank debt products (CD's, money markets, etc.) to earn money for their credit union shareholders. Debt is sin, but we don't mind other "heathens" going into it, so we can profit from it. Its like drug dealers who won't take the drugs, but are glad you do. Pimps and pushers.....there is no moral conviction, just hypocrisy . Oh yeah, I have a question for anyone out there who may know more than me on this: My friend used to be on staff @ twi hq. He told me that twi REQUIRED them to be members of their credit union so that twi could direct deposit their paychecks into it. It saved twi tons of money, but it seems that a staffer should have the choice to have the direct deposit to a different bank or savings institution. Is this "policy" of theirs against the law?

My oh my, how things have changed! I had a friend tell me once who was on Staff at twi's HQ about a situation where LCM forced a longtime staffer's wife be on HQ staff in the summer. She was a teacher in N.B. and he has been on staff since there was a staff (BEW)...literally. She didn't want to be there, but unless a very special exception was made, ALL staff folks were to have their spouses / older children work on Staff during the summers. :( LCM used to get hacked off when Staffers had requested permission to have their children work elsewhere during the summer. Although that Staff guy ended up capitulating to LCM's demand, he wasn't always marching to LCM's drum. When LCM forced all the Staff to pull their children out of New Knoxville's baseball league because his son was to be on a FORMER clergyman's team, this guy let his son's play. And now.....they actually want their "lesser" positions to get jobs elsewhere. Hey Belle, I wonder how much your ex will make being a security guard? Regardless of his background, security guards don't normally make much (no offense to anyone who happens to be one - including any innies on Safety).

Galen (BTW - HAPPY BIRTHDAY), Yeah, I was pretty involved with military outreach too. I heard about that sub, North pole class. Wasn't that the one where the whole ship was to be totally silent, but the memo never got to those running the class? I heard that someone who was endevoring to locate the sub (I guess during an exercise) reported that, although he couldn't hear the sub, he did hear some preacher teaching the Bible. Pretty funny. Paul Norcross - I just cannot imagine anyone having a bad thing to say about him. That man changed my life for the better! He was terrific and inspiring! All my best to him and his family!

Belle, I love that verse I'll tell you EXACTLY how TWI will spin that verse....pretty standard how they do it to others. They will say that the inheritance is a "spiritual inheritance," just like they downplayed financial prosperity to mean "spiritual prosperity." For that matter, they always made "fornication" and "adultery" to mean the "spiritual" kinds (idolatry) too. Unfortunately for them, the verse says that the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just. What kind of "wealth" of a sinner would a just and godly man want? Not their "spiritual" wealth - they don't have it, thus they are sinners. Of course it refers to their financial wealth. So, TWI would have a hard time spinning that verse. In all my years with TWI - I NEVER heard them ever teach that verse. Tough to do since The Word of God is the Will of God. Therefore, to be a "good man," they would need to leave physical wealth as inheritance. How many of them will do so? How many of them even know that they should? Sad, Sad, Sad. :( More than frustration, I have just lots of pity for them all.

Sky - Yeah, I remember LCM always saying stupid things like "Beaver Cleaver isn't running the world now" meaning that times are different, so therefore debt is not OK now. That is one way to get Uncle Harry & VPW off the debt hook. If the "No Debt or else" policy w/punishments is "The Word of God" based on rightly dividing the Bible, then the conditions of the world should be immaterial to the standard. The Word of God in its written form should transcend every generation, culture, and worldly condition. Therefore, if debt is wrong now, then it should have been wrong in the 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's, etc. That includes when Uncle Harry received the revelation to take out a loan and renovate the Wierwille home. Now, if the "No Debt or else" policy w/punishments is based on "revelation" due to our times / world's conditions, (Like Noah preaching that it was going to rain), then either their "guidance" must come to pass or the Word says that they are speaking presumptuously. Which one is it?? :blink: Deuteronomy 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shallwe know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath NOT spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

So, in conclusion - TWI - if you're listening to me (of course you're not), stop being hypocites! Save money without earning ANY interest from the debts of others in your community (e.g. CD's so that banks can put people in debt with your money for homes, college, etc.). No bonds either. Just use stocks and their dividends - equity w/o debt. Therefore, end outside banking relationships - banks must be evil since they enslave others, including Christians, in financial debt. Publicly admit that Uncle Harry was off God's Word (OK - say it your way "not God's will") when he went into debt to go to school in Lima (student loans to dad), borrowed for his business that funded TWI in early years....and was probably lying when he said God gave him revelation to take out the loan to renovate the Wierwille home. Don't give me that crap about how it went above and beyond the written Word. Heck, it outright contradicted the written Word AS YOU TELL IT regarding debt for homes, etc. Of course God would never give revelation that would contradict what YOU say regarding all debt is evil / sin/ not God's will. Come on, say it! Rosie's sharing how she bought the land her house was built on, and the house itself, was based on inheritance and other property sold. If so, and if either of those two sources were due to debt (did her parents or ex buy the previous property using debt, etc.), then admit it came from illigitimate sources, etc. Well TWI - go on now. Let's get clean regarding you not benefitting at all from any debt. As I said before, it is unethical to say, its wrong but I'll profit from others doing the wrong. As I said, pimps don't engage in the prostitution acts, they just profit from it If TWI cannot do those things, then how can they say all debt is wrong, bad, sin, and not God's Word? :blink: