TheHighWay

I've posted this elsewhere but it bears repeating: I was in-rez at Emporia while they were putting AOS together. Craig visited several times and each time he would tell us how the production was going.... about the dance steps, the costuming, the set, etc. And I distinctly remember thinking to myself that it sounded like he was making it up as he went along. Having been in theater productions through high school and college myself, it didn't make sense to me that "god was still showing him" new stuff almost all the way up to opening night!! Of course, I quickly tried to shut down those thoughts because they were "devilish" you know.

Not to derail but have you ever watched this show?? Don't let the name fool you. The folks who compete on "So You Think You Can Dance" are very talented and do routines every week that are AMAZING. Most of the competitors are already trained dancers, they are just looking for their break to move up to professional level. To compare it to "Dancing with the Stars" is like comparing Baryshnikov to Athletes of the Spirit. ((stepping down off my soapbox now))

At one point it was basically for Staff and Way Corps. But knowing twi it could have expanded to include Advanced Class grads or contracted to exclude corps on the field... What we would need to know is generally speaking, what percent of twi's overall numbers were credit union members. From that we could logically deduce how many folks are fellowshippin' around the globe these days.

I'm thinking that the "no loans" policy was put in place at the credit union when the "no debt" policy hit. Prior to that they were loaning money quite readily. After that, it was just the mandatory bank for all twi employees.

Well, I guess there WAS a good side to being booted, then, wasn't there... I didn't have any follow-up phone calls to put up with!!

I think it is perfectly acceptable and appropriate to be outraged by some of these people's behaviors!!! At what point did outrage become the wrong emotion to feel? Now, what you choose to do with your outrage is a separate issue, but to have it in the first place is nothing more or less (in my humble opinion) than righteous anger...

Jeff, I'm skipping right from your comment here to my reply... I was in a similar situation (thrown out of twi and divorced from a still-in spouse who was really angry with me over the whole mess). He didn't actually HATE me, but he was very close-minded in his opinions and was very upset with me for a long time. It didn't take my then 7yr old very long to figure out who he COULD speak openly and honestly with, and who he COULDN'T. It is sad that your son has to see his mom behaving badly but the fact that he has your good, level-headed example to contrast it to will serve him very well as he grows up. My kid is a young man now and has turned out pretty well (if I do say so myself). Just keep doing what you are doing, and it will be fine.

Excellent points, Potato... especially since we know that twi and their minions did EXACTLY that in the Colorado custody case... had people sit on the stand and blatantly lie about what was said and what was practiced! (remember, this is where they said there was no such practice/teaching as "Mark and Avoid"!!!) And anyone who was around at the time knows that when twi saw the writing on the wall in the Allen case because of the deposed testimony of Craig and Rosalie, they decided to settle, they then went around crowing about how they WON and that the whole case was only about evil people trying to get money out of twi. I understand the argument to uphold the sanctity of our judicial system. Despite its flaws I still believe its the best system devised yet. However, you cannot overlook the good use of media in getting pertinent information out that the wealthy or powerful wish to have suppressed. So, in my book, there is a need for both and they are not mutually exclusive!

Agreed. I think after awhile denial becomes their their only option. Who would possibly want to admit they have spent their entire adult life hurting others on a routine basis?

Personally, I think they were so deeply into what twi taught them, and in some cases so naturally arrogant, they didn't perceive they were doing any harm at the time, so they are just not going to remember it in the kind of detail those of us on the receiving end will retain. In my case, I had the opportunity to explain in detail what was done, by whom, and the disastrous results... that's when I got the "well, we were just following orders" routine. Really??? Well, I guess that makes it okay then, right? I know a lot of the hurt I inflicted on others came from direct orders from my higher-ups, but I have eagerly apologized for my actions whenever the chance has presented itself. Even if I've hurt someone and not realized it, if they came to me and explained how I had hurt them, I've apologized. Not to do so just shows me someone STILL doesn't think they really did anything wrong (or in some cases that they are even capable of doing something wrong) and therefore they aren't really sorry.

LOVE your description!

I have had conversations with several ex "fellow believers" that were very rewarding as we both apologized for being stupid and hurting each other at different times. But, without exception, when I have encountered past leadership (at any level) they have done all the things mentioned above: 1) couldn't remember doing the bad deed 2) didn't apologize for the harm done 3) blamed someone higher on the food chain than themselves I have heard of a few exceptions (Jeff M@hn, Raph D) but even though I knew them both neither of them did me any harm in the first place, so I can't vouch personally. I am sorry to hear Paul M. didn't live up to a higher standard...

Wow... if he is 60, that makes me SO old... but I don't FEEL old at all... I hope he takes this opportunity to genuinely reflect on his life and make some changes. (I'm not holding my breath, though)

Hmmm... now there's a thought... word has it that he currently still thinks he did nothing wrong, that he (and twi by proxy) is a victim of an attack from the adversary. So the questions are: Will twi royalty be arrogant enough to cut King Okie loose once the time limits run out, thinking he will remain loyal anyway? And if they do, WILL Craig remain loyal to the end or finally realize he was just as expendable as the rest of us, and start spilling the beans? Only time will tell...

Agreed... It isn't a question of whether you were in a CULT. (yes you were) It is more a question of whether you were IN a cult. (sounds like you weren't)

I don't believe this is a twi mark because they always use the WAY brand (with the A and the Y insinuated into the W) for anything associated with Gunnison... and never just a 'W' in that particular font as a ministry mark that I remember.

I'll go you one better... Years before "genuine spiritual suspicion"... I remember sitting in a corps teaching with Craig in the BRC, and he starts relating a story about some poor corps person on the field who was getting chewed out by their leadership for not showing enough initiative in their area and this poor corps-bot says: But I don't know what to do!!! Both the local leader and Craig were flabbergasted to the point of outrage that someone could go through years of way corps training (the best training in the world!) and get out of the field and not know what to do!!! They blamed her and said she obviously hadn't made the most of her time in-rez and that was the lesson he was imparting to us: we are laying it all out for you, absorb everything and prosper. But what I thought was, this person had spent who knows how many years being completely micro-managed and getting in trouble whenever she strayed outside the dictated path, then suddenly she was responsible for a getting things done with virtually no directives at all. Of COURSE she was at a complete loss!!! And they were mad at HER (typical)... it just never occurred to them to look at what THEY might have done wrong in her training. DUH

The very happiest of birthdays, catcup!!! Enjoy some cats, on me: http://icanhascheezburger.com/

I'm sorry it turned out exactly as we said it would, but at least you know "why" and don't have to get completely freaked out by your friend's behavior. You are not alone. If no one has suggested it to you yet, get ahold of the book "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse". It was written by people who never had any direct interaction with TWI but who understand the actions and principles involved whenever someone puts their trust in a spiritual authority figure and the authority figure abuses that trust. It will give you insight into what is going on with your friend although, again, she will not realize or admit that it is happening at all. As for working the Word together, just realize that she will show you what they've taught her and if it doesn't make sense to you or you just don't agree with their conclusions, she will conclude you just don't see it (NOT that you might have a point). So, again, I suggest you tread lightly. Try to be honest with her but, well, you've seen who she will side with if you push too hard.

Stephaniefaye, This is just my two cents worth but so you know, I have experience on all sides of this issue: as one who had family concerned that I had joined twi in the first place, as someone who had dear friends decide to leave twi and try to talk me into leaving, and then finally as someone who saw for herself all the lies, hypocracy, and damage this group could do and had to find a way to leave after 19 years of heavy involvement, and tried to get other dear friends to leave with me... You've received some really good advice on this thread, and it sounds like you are starting to get the right idea about how to talk to your friend about this. Just understand that once she has bought into the big concept that twi does a better job than any other group at getting to the truth of the Word of God, it will probably be REALLY hard to discuss any one particular point with her because she will just assume you don't work the Word diligently/properly, or you aren't spiritually mature enough to get the concepts, etc. And if you push a point too far she will go from thinking you are just mistaken or mislead to wondering if you are wrongly influenced in your thinking (aka devil spirits). If you push too hard, she WILL choose twi over your friendship, no matter how long you have been friends. Many of us here on these boards had trusted friends and family try to point out what they could see was wrong with this group, but we didn't want to hear it and many of us ended up turning our backs on those friends/family for years. You need to understand that whole time she's been attending fellowships what has been happening underneath the surface is that she has been receiving training on how to dismiss other people's insights or arguments about the Bible, and much more importantly she has been taught how to start disregarding her own gut instincts. If there were ever things about the group that made her stop and pause, she's learned/learning how to shut those thoughts down and over-ride them with what twi has told her is right. She will consider that she's "renewing her mind to the Word" when she does this. It's a really incremental process and she won't even realize it has been happening. My best overall advice is "tread lightly". I think it is good for you to know a whole lot about twi but you don't necessarily need to discuss those things with her up front. If someone isn't ready to hear the truth, there is no amount of logic or factual evidence, no amount of words -- or right way to say those words -- that will get her to actually HEAR whatever you try to tell her. Not if she doesn't want to hear them. She will justify herself and twi any way she can, and eventually shut you out to keep from hearing the arguments anymore, just like an abuse victim does. I would just focus more on what it is that has attracted her to them. Is it the people? Is it their promise of prosperity in the face of worldly pressures? Is it their promise of a closer walk for/with God? Is it her own fear of not having a handle on the rest of her life? Trust me, there is "something" that is the key draw factor for her, whether she knows it or not. Most importantly, just let her know that no matter what, you are her solid friend, and then stick to that. Even if you cannot get through to her now, at 'some' point, when she's ready to leave the group, she will need and appreciate having a friend like you that knew her before twi that she can go back to and start over. Someone she knows will forgive her bad judgement without hesitation. Knowing there is someone out there like that makes it easier to break off from twi when the person finally wants to make that leap. Hope this helps. THW

Really? Was it that late into the 90s when the "prevailing" started? Seemed so much earlier than that to me. Anyway, sorry for the mis-information on that.

O-M-G..... They STILL have "Decade of Prevailing" on their poster!!!!!!! http://www.theway.org/ What is wrong with these people???????? In most peoples' reckoning a decade refers to any part of a particular set of 10 years. For instance if an actor's career started in 1965 and went to 1988 they would say his career spanned three decades. (60s, 70s, 80s) So... "decade of prevailing" should have been confined to the 90s, right? But, let's give twi the benefit of the doubt and say they wanted to count an actual 10 years as their decade. LCM started the "decade of prevailing" when? 1990? 1991? That means their decade ended like, um, six or seven years ago?? Oh, I know... maybe this is a "spiritual decade"... you know, like some people say the seven days of creation were "spiritual days" and not subject to our current, literal, interpretation. But didn't twi teach the literal version? Okay, I'm stumped... How many years does it take to make a decade?

Just think, people.... right this very minute we could be sitting in THE auditorium, hearing the Word in Song (as lately featured on The Soup) and lovingly dishing out our hard-earned money to those needy BOT (um, so they can move the Word of course!), and hearing such rousing speakers as Rosalie the Fox!! Why, I'm getting BLESSED just thinking about it, aren't you?????

The real stuff for me was with the folks in my first fellowship. I still thought well of them even when they left twi and I stayed in. And after I left I looked them up and we still got along great. The fake stuff came later... with my last twigs; the ones that were basically set up by the local leadership (when folks were no longer free to choose which local fellowship to attend). And let's face it, it's hard to bond when everyone is just a plastic veneer. No one trusted anyone enough not to rat them out to leadership if they let their guard down and revealed that they might actually have a ((gasp)) problem.

Much as I usually jump on the "follow the money" bandwagon, I have to say I don't really think this was the case with the two-drink limit. I think that twi leadership realized that they had a group of "free-thinking" young people who by the early 80s they were trying to make look more "legitimate" and professional. TWI rode the same current of popular opinion that was starting to crack down on drunk drivers and decided that if we were going to be examples to the world, then this was just one more area to discipline. Same as when DocVic and LCM decided on the spur of the moment that the corps would be non-smoking, stating that if you wanted to be on the front lines for God you could certainly discipline yourself enough to stop smoking. (of course, they did talk about the cost of cigarettes being a factor, now that I think about it)