TheHighWay

You know, I wondered about that too... seemed like an odd thing to do when I first heard it, but after more thought I've concluded that if he was trying to be open and honest about the whole history (the good and the bad) with himself and his family, and that is the atmosphere in which his kids were raised, it probably wasn't a big deal that he took them there. And as they got older I'm sure they could understand that it was all part of his personal journey to find closure --- specially since he wasn't actually there as people were dying. I'm sure those memories would have made it so much harder for him to visit the place. But knowing it was the place where a utopian dream lived and died and so many people he loved were killed, it was probably more like a visit to a sematary or a sacred burial ground than anything else.

The whole thing was very interesting. I agree he had a really positive outlook on everything... clearly he had worked through his issues and made his peace. Good for him. I thought it was interesting that he had gone back to Jonestown at one point, looking for pieces of his past, but when all he found was the metal tub that held the poisoned kool-aid, he realized it was time to move on. Wow. I also thought it was very telling and interesting to see the contrast between Jim Jones, Jr. who has faced his demons and conquored them, with the sister of John Wayne Gacy, who clearly hadn't. Who still had neighbors who knew nothing of her family history. The difference was blatant to any one who has had to face their own sorry past and live it down -- you know, like being a member of a cult for almost 20 years... :-)

There were so many, many red flags, but I was willing to blow them all off until I got to the age where you start looking back over your life a little. That's when I started counting the costs and realizing they had SO much they were hiding that I finally ran for the hills...

I heard a song today on the radio that I've listened to a million times over but for some reason instead of making me think of the sixties and "stickin it to the man", today it made me think of twi and ol' VP... Sunshine go away today I don't feel much like dancing Some man's gone, he's tried to run my life Don't know what he's asking He tells me I'd better get in line Can't hear what he's saying When I grow up I'm going to make it mine But these aren't dues I been paying (Chorus) How much does it cost, I'll buy it The time is all we've lost, I'll try it But he can't even run his own life I'll be damned if he'll run mine, Sunshine Working starts to make me wonder where The fruits of what I do are going He says in love and war all is fair But he's got cards he ain't showing (Chorus) Sunshine come on back another day I promise you I'll be singing This old world, she's gonna turn around Brand new bells'll be ringing It really reminded me of my first visits to the forums, and realizing what a scam I'd gotten myself into, and finding that defiant voice inside me to stand up and say, "This ends now!"... Yup... "Brand new bells'll be ringing"... when you get your head clear of all the BS and start living your own life again... Sign me: forever thankful to be free TheHighWay

Yup... welcome, welcome, welcome... many of us have come here for all the same reasons... this place was my therapy for a long, long time! Lots of information here, and lots of people willing to answer your questions. Happy reading! --TheHighWay

Congrats, you two!!! Partaaaay oooonnnnnnn!!!!

Hey, I was once a sweet College Division girl at Emporia!! (and then I went into the corps) THW

Brainfixed... clearly you've struck a few nerves around here (based on some of the responses you are getting in this thread). I don't always like or agree with what you've posted at Greasespot, but I'm not the thought police... and you aren't here to please me, or anyone else for that matter. So, hats off to you, my friend, for some breakthrough realizations: -- you do have stuff and it does stink -- just because some of us have been on this forum since before the beginning [myself included] doesn't mean we have all our stuff figured out (and ours still stinks, too) -- sometimes you just need to spew and get stuff out of your system (but its best if you don't aim it right AT someone... they usually aren't the one you are really angry with) -- and yes, sometimes a good ol' feisty argument helps peel away the layers and get to the real core of what's bugging you. And hopefully you have argued respectfully enough and well enough that you can agree to disagree and walk away from your opponent without a grudge. May the road ahead of you be clearer as you sort through your "stuff" ... THW

Huh... guess they've gone away from the "all things green" days, lol. It has a much nicer look, but its all the same BS, so....

Twinky... just curious how being ready to crawl back to twi led you to greasespot? Did you google "The Way International" or "greasespot by midnight"? I found WayDale while specifically looking for any shred of info I could find on the Allen lawsuit right after the first announcement meeting, since our leadership wouldn't even tell us what Martindale and twi were being charged with...

Yeah... WayDale was where all us 'innies' went for the REAL info when it became so obvious our leadership was lying their fannnies off to us. There was so much happening so fast back then the threads were hot, hot, HOT!!! I would check the threads several times a day because I didn't want to miss anything. (of course, I got outed and booted for posting on WayDale, so...)

Leafytwiglet, Your comments brought something to mind... does anyone else remember a book that was being written that was supposed to tell the story of Jesus as a small child? I remember someone reading us a passage and that the toddler Jesus supposedly had a carving of a camel or something and when asked where it came from he replied, "Magi give it to me." I thought it was adorable and was really looking forward to it, but it never got published. The other thing your post made me think about was that when Craig started standing up against Chris Geer, he also started attacking those that were loyal to twi, but not necessarily to himself... he dismantled the teen stage at the ROA, and discontinued Teen Summer School because those kids had become very fond of the leaders that coordinated those events (they clearly had a ministry amongst the teens) and Craig couldn't stand it. I remember him standing at lunch and ranting about how the kids should never take precidence over the adults or some such rubbish. It was really obvious (even to my still-twi-loyal brain) that he was just plain jealous. THW

Welcome beanaboos, Yes, I taught a few children's fellowships... mostly at state meetings. Once or twice I helped herd kids at HQ's children's fellowships during big weekends but that was mostly keeping them quiet and passing out juice. In our local area the fellowships were too small to hold individual children's fellowships, and even though there were enough small children that we could have had one during the Sunday service tape meeting, by then (the 90s) it was considered a waste of the adults' time. "Dr. Wierwille taught the Word in simple terms and so should we... then even small children should be able to get something from it" we were told. Obviously it was just another tactic to control the adults... musn't have them in a separate room not hearing what everyone else is hearing!! So my poor child had to sit still, with no toys, no snuggles, and no snoozing through long, boring adult teachings and I was expected to smack him with a spoon if he didn't. Just makes me sick thinking about it... And yes, I agree with you that your parents left at a time in twi's history that allowed them to hold fast to the goodness of Dr. Wierwille, and maintain a strong belief in the doctrines he taught. They could blame everything that was going wrong on those who came after, but not on the one who taught us all. I have other friends who are the same. They simply cannot (will not) listen to or believe anyone who tries to show them the truth of what was going on from the very beginning, or the final result that we were all in a full-blown CULT. As for your spiritual journey, I wish you well. Just be true to yourself, even if it means you don't find a specific church or religion that you are comfortable with... I think God is big enough to embrace all of us who are trying to find Him, even when our path isn't very conventional.

Nine years out and counting for me... and I understand completely what you are saying. My first couple years out I had so much bottled up inside me it was all I could talk about. Every event in my life made me think of some twi-situation I had lived through (good or bad) that related to that event: The first time I blew a whole day reading a book without feeling guilty. The times I spent money in ways that would have gotten me in trouble with leadership. The trips I enjoyed, knowing that I didn't have to file a travel itinerary with leadership or attend a fellowship during vacation. The list is endless... But like you, most of that has faded with the years and it seems so insane and so unrelated to who I am now, I almost have to remind myself that these things happened to ME; I lived them, I did not just read about them in some book or see them play out on some movie screen. I think it is good to remember, though... the lessons learned are just too important to forget!

I agree with George... in the beginning WIBP had some good sessions where people were actually able to discuss their concerns and needs (re: their businesses or occupations) and get feedback that was genuinely helpful Biblically. But of course, by the 1990's all that was gone.

I decided to modify this post... upon further pondering, it may be that none of these were MANDATORY reading... just strongly suggested (but you all know the suggestion of a general...) The Challenging Counterfeit Babylon Mystery Religion Bedside Manners Fascinating Womanhood Man of Steel and Velvet The Tracker Soldier That's all I can remember right now, but there might have been a couple more...

Twinky, I have vague memories of Q&A sessions but I can't remember from what/when... I took PFAL in the fall of 1981 and attended my first ROA in 1982... I remember my first WIBP (spring 1984). At one point the trustees sat up front and took turns talking about ministry things, and it was fairly casual... bouncing around ideas as they came up (this was the one where VPW finalized the idea that the way corps would be smokeless from hence forth)... but I can't remember if they allowed Q&A or not. I do remember a very distinct difference between the focus/feeling of this conference and the WIBP conferences I attended later. Certainly by the time POP came along (spring 1985) they didn't allow open questions... everything had to be under their control, because they didn't know what people might actually ask them. THW

RumRunner, on 08 October 2009 - 10:01 PM, said: I'll broaden this outside of the cult mentality if you will. We do not teach critical thinking to children - we teach them how to "do" something - wash the dishes, mow the lawn, etc. But they cannot wake up if we don't teach them critical and independent thinking. They must not be afraid of asking about anything - but we inject our "Robert's Rules of Order" into the class room and shut them down. Now I am in no way blaming every teacher - heck I'm a university researcher - I am simply saying that in order to make children "proper" little things we take away critical thinking and instead we instill fear of critical thinking - I mean really - how many people tell their kids that's it's OK to ask if Dad or Mom are wrong about something?..and we do it in the name of protecting them. My $0.02 and worth at least a nickel. ----------------------- I'm with you on this RumRunner... I never was able to buy into the whole line, "A child's job is to obey without question." My kid was one of those who did not respond well to having orders barked at him. Even when he was a toddler it would just get him upset and make things worse. However, if you took a moment to explain the thinking behind the command, and answered his questions, he was as good as gold. This was true from the moment he could understand words, and that's how I went about teaching him how to behave. I wish I had a nickel for every time I was told to just use the spoon! That I was over-explaining things, spoiling him, allowing him to be disobedient, yada-yada-yada... Now I'm very proud of the thoughtful and insightful young man I see before me. Raspberries to you,twi!!

First, I make an effort to clear my head of one-sided thinking. What I did initially that helped me break out of the TWI mind-clench was seek out completely opposing viewpoints. I listened to music that would not have been approved, I used words that had been forbidden, and I read a lot of things that would have been frowned-upon. Not because I was looking for new answers but just to clear my head of the one-sided dogma. That was a needed first step before I could figure out what I actually thought about things. I still do that today if I find my thinking getting a little skewed. The second thing, is to look for the valid points of each opinion. Sometimes it takes a real effort to acknowledge that someone is making a good point when they seem to be spouting an opinion that is in complete opposition to my own. I am finding this tactic particularly helpful in trying to sort out the political issues we are grappling with today. I think that this is what our founding fathers did so well. They didn't all agree. They had some seriously opposing ideas. But they were all more interested in finding a middle ground that would advance everyone forward just a little bit, than trying to advance their own individual reputations and agendas. (Thank God) I also think a healthy dose of skepticism is good. (not criticism or sarcasm) Just a willingness to ask the hard questions. (As someone posted: who has a dog in this hunt? Are they trying to sell me something and why? What do they stand to gain? What do they stand to lose? Are they willing to work toward a compramise or just seeking one-sided solutions?) And finally, I think you have to have a high enough opinion of your own worth to stand up for yourself. We, as a society, seem so uncomfortable at times with self-advocacy. We seem uncomfortable with asking direct, to-the-point questions about things. We are afraid of looking harsh or angry; of being called "mean". So what? If something is going to impact my life I think I have the right to as full an understanding of all the details as possible, whether it makes you a little uncomfortable or not. (edited for clarity)

JT, if I'm not mistaken they stopped doing separate family corps a number of years back, when they decided to sell the Rome City campus. (sorry, don't remember the year)

Twinky... what years were you in-rez? I also have to agree with what others have said... making the trek to HQ started out as an act of dedication on a lot of folks' part. When we were first assigned to our location my husband and I loved that we could make the trip in one day or make it a weekend thing. In fact, we were trying to get others to come with us to see the place in non-ROA-mode long before it was mandated. But, once it became a forced thing, and once it started being so unbelievably regulated, then I started to loathe the whole trip. However, one of the bright spots WAS the food after the service. I knew how hard all the staff worked to pull off a smooth Sunday at HQ, and I knew they would be working long after I drove off. It was always appreciated!!! -- no, my disgust was directed squarely at the powerful ones who were pulling the strings.

Speaking as someone who DID live just within that 250 mile radius... you have got it down exactly! Going wasn't an option. First you could choose a weekend. Then they TOLD you which weekend everyone was going. Then you HAD to carpool with at least one other car. Four hours there. Money for gas. Money for meals. Wear and tear on the car. Driving at speeds and over routes the leadership dictated. Hurry and get changed in the public bathrooms. Drop your casual clothes back in your car. Drop the kiddies off at their various locations and scurry over to the SNS. After it was over, you do the same in reverse, grabbing the kiddies, grabbing a burger, changing in the bathrooms. Then you hop in the car and drive another four hours home, knowing that your small children will be cranky for the next two days because they were up too late and had to snooze in the car. And that you will not only hear the the same topic taught at the next two fellowship meetings by your leadership, but you will hear the actual SNS all over again via tape next Sunday. Now wasn't that a blessing?

When they first started you could choose between betamax tapes and vhs tapes. Anyone know what year they started making these videos available? And when they stopped offering beta versions?

I'm right there with you on that... between the college program, marriage to a twi-for-lifer, and corps training I completely lost 1984-1990. I don't know TV shows, music, politics, news-worthy events... nothing!! Oh, hey Twinky... the corps took OT History with us (or we with them... whatever) my year in the College Program. John Sch**nh**t taught it, and it was really interesting and informative. Of course, once he wrote the paper on adultery he was OUT and there was no one who could teach it quite as well. (anyone remember his one-minute version of the OT?)