TheHighWay

A list! A list! We need a list! What the heck do all those funny marks mean? d or l -- dechomai or lambano also -- move, remove or place an also as taught by bullinger hs -- holy spirit (as in, the gift) accompanied by a number for it's specific #usage HS -- Holy Spirit (as in, the giver) P H (help me out here, Out There, the P's and H's were from your post... are we talking pneuma's and hagion's or something else?) Actually, at one point I got really, really anal and had red underlined verses for College Division retemories, and blue underlined verses for Way Corps retemories, and green underlined verses for Advanced Class retemories. Geez, did I ever need a life!

Well, since you already mentioned stringing chairs, I'll just add to that: making sure the chairs, tables, plants and plaquards in the dining room were all lined up not just with each other, but with the carpet on the floor and the patterns on the walls. My other favorite "is this really what we are here for?" job is cleaning the dorm bathrooms, hallways and public areas... for the second time in a day, and the fifth day in a week. Yeah... I don't care who you are, now that's being spiritual!!

Oh yeah, I remember all that... Supposedly some believer on the field had "given" a computer to the limb coordinator, and then was trying to wield undo influence over the limb coordinator. At least, that's the story that came from Craig. In his typical fashion he over-reacted and mandated NO GIFTS!! And of course, no common sense whatsoever was used. EVERYTHING that would normally be considered just a nice thing to do for someone else got labeled a GIFT. (oh no, they were trying to GIVE something to us.... EEEEEEEEVVVIIIIIIILLLLL, eeeeeeeeeevvvvviiiiiiiillllll......) I mean cut flowers for the table at a dinner, as someone mentioned veggies from the garden, whatever. Suddenly EVERY gift was a potential bribe. Holy crap, talk about no trust of your leadership, and no trust of your people. (I don't remember, though if mandatory free babysitting of the leadership's children or cleaning of their homes was ever considered a gift...)

You didn't underline "decreased need for sleep" -- Doc Vic prided himself on only need a few hours of sleep a night. Made it sound like it was because God had him so full of the holy spirit he was refreshed and energized that way, rather than the normal mortal way of sleep (such a waste of time, dontcha know). Or "increased interest in goal-directed activities" -- which defines just about every activity or program ever put out by twi I think you might be on to something here...

ALSO !!!! That's the one I was thinking about!!!

Waysider... I completely forgot about those!! (aaaahhh smell that freedom....) What the heck were those other things we had to mark? Something from Bullinger?

I posted some comments about this program over on the Way section, not realizing this one was already going... The production date on this particular show is 2007, so I agree it is brand-spankin-new. I know I've never seen the interviews and comments from people who were really there like this, and I've certainly never heard Jim Jones' own taped megaphone rants. What really struck me was just how many of the comments could have come from almost any ex-wayfer... how things started so well and the activities seemed to fresh and alive and different and spiritual. And how, as things got screwy, they knew things weren't right but they said and did nothing hoping it would get better. And how everyone was trained to report any form of rule-breaking or rebellion so as to protect the group. And how when Jim Jones told the group in Jonestown they were free to leave, those were his words, but his meaning was clearly "if you leave, it's a betrayal". Whew... gave me chills.

ooops... didn't realize there was another thread going... my bad.

Let me add a warning here.... One woman describes how Jones selected her to have sex with, and her narrative is so close to what I've heard described as VP's behavior that it kinda shook me up a bit... I mean, the woman is very matter of fact and doesn't go into any gory details, but it doesn't "diminish" the horrible thing that was done to her. More quotes: ... when we first started building Jonestown it was like being a part of something new and fresh and different. I loved that we were growing our own food and making everything ourselves. ... because none of us owned much we were all part-owners of this place... it was such a sense of comeraderie and it was just FUN!!! Does this remind anyone of how they felt working at HQ or Gunnison or Indiana in the corps? We felt special, it was often great fun. We grew our own food and prepared it. And we felt that because of our efforts to improve and maintain these places, they belonged to us.

I know we've talked before about how cults (or any controlling group, or any controlling person, for that matter) use the same tactics and methods for keeping people under control. And we've talked about some of the wonderful books out there that go over these methods point-by-point to help those of us who have been controlled SEE how we were manipulated and kept in bondage. But yesterday I saw a PBS show on Jonestown that sent chills up my spine. I've seen documentaries and made-for-tv-movies about the group before, but this was the first one that had extensive comments from people who had been members of the People's Temple. People who, for various reasons, either didn't go to Jonestown, or didn't die there. Even if you think there can be no comparing Jonestown and TWI, (granted, they got extreme in ways twi never did) the comments from the people who were involved sound like they were lifted right off this board... "it was so exciting in the beginning, so fresh and alive... these people were my family... Jim Jones could just draw you in... I saw people get healed... as the church grew there was a lot of work to be done so we were all expected to put in 10-20 hours a week in addition to our regular jobs... as things got more controlled I started to have doubts but you couldn't express them; your own family members would report you to the leadership if you did... if you had said or done something wrong, Jim would call you out in front of the congregation, often at mealtimes, and berate you until you admitted you were sorry... I sat there and watched this happen and KNEW that it was just wrong, and still I sat there and did nothing... I was afraid to leave... leaving meant walking away from my wife and children because she didn't want to leave... " They actually had audio clips of a woman turning her husband in for saying he wanted to leave the group, and of Jones chewing this poor guy down. Maybe some of you never went through one of Martindale's (or some mog-wanna-be's) rants but listening to these clips reminded me SO much of being back in-rez. PBS tends to replay their shows, but on a local schedule. If you get a chance to watch this program I highly recommend it!!

Yes, all these things happened... in AUGUST of that year, right after the depositions were taken. (You know, the ones where Rosalie basically admitted this kind of thing had been going on for years, and that a lot of people knew about it.) The lawsuit wasn't settled until a few days before the trial was scheduled to start in NOVEMBER. The way TWI plays things, I think they did all those things to LCM to publically show "they" were making changes. "They" had nothing to do with LCM's bad behavior. "They" were righteous, shocked, and outraged by what had come to light. HAH. I think they were trying to influence the Allen's to drop the case, or influence a potential jury that they were all better now. The Allens didn't fall for it... it was far too little, far too late. TWI finally had to settle the case to keep all those dirty little secrets from coming out in a very public forum. Of course, they spun that as a victory, too. "See, all the Allens ever wanted was money." "It was just extortion, pure and simple." And the little lemmings ate it up without realizing that you don't settle with your accusers if you are holding a winning hand. What gets me is that lcm's "probation" was so spectacularly different than anyone else's: Tell me anyone else on probation who's wife got to keep their position in the twi's household, let alone their position on HQ staff. Tell me anyone else on probation who got to visit root locales. Tell me anyone else on probation who didn't have it come to an end, one way or another, long before six years passed. Tell me anyone else on probation who was protected by leadership: no questions or disparaging remarks allowed, no purging of his books, tapes, teachings, classes...

I think twi is like some horrible old relative who lives "forever" seemingly out of spite. I don't think you can give them any number of years before collapse. As long as there are even 5 people entering the Corps every year, 25 people attending fellowship, or 50 people on staff, the structure that is in place will keep chugging away... It wouldn't surprise me if they were still a recognized religious organization 50 years from now.

Bolshevik, I don't think THEY think its miserable... it's not miserable for THEM. So, yes, their intent is to keep things just like they are. It's their legacy. And I've never met a politically-minded leader (as opposed to a true leader) who wasn't more interested in their own legacy than anything else.

LWM, Thanks for your response. I see your point: both are offshoots and therefore open for discussion. "Every man is right in his own eyes." To you, what they teach makes sense, and you don't see how anyone could logically dismiss their teachings (personal prophecy thing aside). To me, I've thrown all organized religion out the window. I find a lot more opportunities to be good unto others, and a lot more spiritual understanding outside of other people's doctrines and teachings. But that's just me. Others may like CFF not because of their specific teachings but because they love the fellowship with their local folks. I don't think it's for us to judge other people's choices based on our own criteria. In the first place, there is a big difference between VP and the offshoots. VP claimed what he was teaching was a result of his own research, teaching, study, and fellowship with God. That has been proven over and over again to be a blatant, bald-faced lie. I don't believe any of the offshoots are out there saying what they are teaching is their own material, but a re-evaluation of twi's doctrines. In the second place, I think asking a group that broke off from another group, specifically to "save" the doctrines they believed had been corrupted by their original religion to come up with "new light" is a bit of a stretch. But then again, I think asking anyone at this point to come up with "new light" is ridiculous. How in the heck are you going to find anything new in a book that has been read, studied, dissected, and evaluated as much as the Bible. If you do, you are just playing semantics, in my opinion. And I think that was many people's first mistake regarding twi... we bought into the notion that Doc Vic had been given "new light". The information was new to us, so we assumed it was new to our lifetime. How naive of us. The Bible pretty much says what it says. Take it or leave it, you aren't going to find anything new that hasn't already been found by some Biblical scholar at some point in history. --- new personal insight, yes --- new inspiration, yes --- a renewed sense of self-worth, yes ------ but new light, Naaaaaah, I don't buy it. Not now I don't. LoneWolf, if you are happy with CES, good for you. Take your happiness and make use of it... do good to others. Don't get wrapped up in a spiritual debate about which offshoot is better. Because it just doesn't matter, really. (can't remember the movie... I can just hear it in my head: It just doesn't matter, it just doesn't matter, it just doesn't matter... )

Lone Wolf, I appreciated what you said, but honestly, did you have to put down some other organization in the process? To each his own.

It wasn't Mrs. Owens, it was another gal on staff. And, yes, he said he was walking down the hall of the OSC, ready to announce he was quitting, and she said something nice (encouraging) to him, and he changed his mind.

Yes, but Watered Garden, did you also do the Calypso roll-away? I wish I could remember who started it, (13th and 15th corps in-rez at Emporia). Funnier than heck, and almost everyone participated. Rooooollll away. Oh - oh - oh - OOOOOOLLLL away. Every burden of me heart, it roll away Every sin she got to go 'neath the chrimson flow... After that people started coming up with the New York roll-away, etc. Never woulda been allowed in the 90's!!

Well said, doojable!!

Exactly!!!... I guess that's why I've always looked at each person individually. Most corps, for most of their corps career, were just about as ignorant of the true monstrosity that was twi as was everyone else out there. So, my general point of view is that it is unprofitable to lump all the way corps into one basket of badness. Then again: Why even talk of blame, you asked? Because these threads and this forum are about understanding our past, in order to move beyond it. (at least that's what I think they are here for) And Bumpy brought up a viewpoint I hadn't really considered before... that the corps, by their very existence lent a certain solidity and credibility to twi. And the corps, often by their (albeit ignorant) actions, enforced a set of rules that allowed VP and the others to live a hidden life of debauchery. Are they to blame or are they victims? And make no mistake, blame is part of the equation. There is self-blame, blame of others, blame of the system itself. (I'm not saying it is beneficial, but I am saying what you think about blame will shape your perspective, attitudes, and future path from here on out.) Hmm... now that I think about it, that is exactly the question that has been debated here regarding Mrs. Wierwille. Many of the same arguments on either side, too. And I still keep coming back around to the quote at the beginning of this post: everyone has a deciding point. Prior to that, they were innocent victims (way corps, Mrs. Wierwille, or not). But once they KNOW and the innocence is gone, that's when I start judging them. Because they either walked away (good choice) or tried to hang in there and make things better from the inside and shield the believers as much as they could (probably not the best choice) or drank more koolade and ignored, defended, or refused to believe what they knew of the ugly side of twi (bad, bad choice). Those who deny what they know, or become overwhelmed by fear (as Dot pointed out a heavily used tool of twi) I still think of as victims. But those who ignore or defend, well, they just crossed over the line and became perpetrators, and that's where my forgiveness factor hits a much steeper incline.

In an effort not to derail another thread, I am quoting Bumpy here, regarding the way corps: I think he has an excellent question worth pondering. I was corps. Drank the koolade. Went out on the field to do what I was taught. Up until now, I have tried very hard to look at each individual situation -- each person's actions and the consequences of their actions -- when assessing their responsibility for the damage we collectively suffered. But is that the right or fair approach? Because Bumpy has a point... if there was no way corps (no body of goons who enforced every edict that came down from the MOG) how much power would HQ have had? How much control over the body of followers? I really hadn't thought about that point until he brought it up. I just hadn't. In my mind, I divided "us" (rank and file believers) and "them" (the guilty perpetrators) along the lines of leadership responsibility, not training received. To me, anyone who lived and worked at the highest levels (boards and department chairs at root locales and higher) couldn't possibly be ignorant of the corruption, and are therefore partly responsible for that corruption. Moving down from there, I cannot imagine that Region coordinators didn't know. Limb coordinators? hmmm... I think at that point my dividing line shifts to longevity... old timers are presumed guilty of knowing, where younger folks generally get a first pass from me. From there, I look at behaviors... were they tyrants or did they try to protect their people? And that is pretty much the standard by which I judge all the rest of the corps, and for that matter, all the rest of the believers: how did they act and treat other people? So, is it fair to say Vic and Craig would not have been MOG without their way corps henchmen? Man, that's a tough one. Because I think human nature would have been in play, even if there wasn't a structure in place to cultivate the kind of people they wanted as leadership. It is human nature to climb the ladder of success not matter what the group or its structure. And let's face it, twi was geared to keep people moving along the conveyer belt: fellowship, pfal, the int and adv classes, the collateral classes, fellowship coordinator, WOW, College Program, Corps, Leadership... for many, they simply jumped through whatever hoop was placed in front of them, in an effort to be a better person, be more spiritual, get closer to God... And for many, it must be said, they jumped through the hoops to get more "goodies"... more power, more authority, maybe even get paid by twi and not have to worry about a real job. But having a way corps training program streamlined the process, for sure. And it allowed the Vicster to personally cultivate and groom those who had the traits he was looking for... and to place them right where he wanted them. No question of that. I guess I'm coming back around, though, to my original position on this... there were basically three kinds of way corps: the ones who were seeking to be leadership, and the ones who really wanted to serve God with all their heart, and the ones who were just going along to get along. I just don't think you can lump all those different kinds of people (not to mention all their different experiences, some hardening themselves to become leadership twi-style, and others seeing the errors and fighting against them) into one category. So, what do you all think? --- two questions here: 1) could twi, Vic, Craig have functioned the way it did without a way corps? 2) how blame-worthy is the corps as a body? or can you even look at it like that? I look forward to reading your responses...

Whoa... where the heck did this attack come from? Apparently something got lost in translation! You spoke of the horrors of what is happening in Africa, and I replied in a way that I thought was saying, Yes we well-off Americans should try to keep our problems in perspective. They do seem small when compared to what others in the world are going through. I'm sorry if you mistook my phrasing to think I was in any way attacking you or what you posted. I was actually saying you were probably right. And frankly, this isn't the first time you've accused me of taking a "way corps" line, which is completely unjustified. Just because I think it's unfair to lump all corps into the garbage dump, doesn't mean I in any way defend what the worst of us did. (or defend what stupid things I did in the name of being way corps, either, which I have explained to you before as well) How about we stop derailing this thread with personal gripes, eh?

I can't tell you how often I tried to make this point to the folks around me... I kept asking why we should be so afraid? They just kept telling me that weakness corrupts strength. Holy crap, how's that for believing?

Nice post, Bumpy... It certainly is easy for us to look at things only from our own limited scope. Keeping a wider lense can help any of us keep things in better perspective, I'm sure. Really and truly, reading through this thread has brought home to me just how far I've come in the past several years. When you find yourself actually surprised to remember how much fear was a daily part of your existence... wow. That's progress!!

I know a couple who met in twi, in 1984 in-rez. Married in 1985. Absolutely suited to each other. Still happily together. (But then, they left the Way around 1986-87 which I'm sure didn't hurt!) As is being pointed out in all these instances, these marriages were about the PEOPLE, the married couple, first and foremost. In the case of the marriages that broke up, it was always about TWI-first, marriage second. And that's why they failed. So, CONGRATULATIONS!!!!! And a hearty well done! To all you who have figured out how to make it work through good times and bad. My hat is off to you. I sincerely hope you are an example and inspiration to those around you.

Beautiful post, Listener... The way I see it, Jesus, being a personal saviour, takes on a whole new meaning when I see all the amazingly different ways people here are getting deliverance/healing. Whether or not the deliverance seems biblical/religous, quick or slow, don't mean crap...all that matters is that it happens!! I only wish some of the critical folks who zoom through these forums and make remarks like, "Why can't you people just get over it?" could understand what you just wrote!! I wrote to someone recently: This place is "healing-in-progress". The people you are calling whiners and complainers are actually people who are still wounded, talking about their wounds, salving their wounds, dresssing their wounds, and getting healed. What you don't see is all those who have come, found the healing they needed, and moved on, better for their time spent here on these forums. To be critical of what's happening here is like walking into a hospital and complaining that all these sick folks are just lying around the place moaning with pain, when they should be just moving beyond it and getting on with their lives. You wouldn't dream of doing such a thing there. Don't do it here, either. (sorry, don't mean to derail)