TheHighWay

My, aren't we a scholarly bunch! My last final was this Wednesday. Whew!! Seven classes this year plus full-time work... too, too much. I'll be cutting back to two classes a semester starting this fall. I've forgotten what sleep and a clean house are like!! What are you-all studying to be when you grow up?

What a profound statement. That's exactly what we did, isn't it? Geez.

I didn't have time to read through this whole thread, so if I am repeating someone else's thoughts, forgive me. But, for the first time it has really dawned on me: They were able to train us to disregard our own judgement because we ASKED them to. We came to them wanting change. Maybe our life was a complete ruin. Or maybe it really wasn't so bad, but we wanted to do better. We wanted to improve. So we came to them. And they told us the get a different result, you had to do things differently. (yes, that makes sense) So when they told us to put off the old natural man and put on the new spiritual man, of COURSE we listened and obeyed. It was what we came to them to accomplish. It was our driving force: change! --- We ASKED them to teach us another way of thinking --- we just trusted them to be honest in that endeavor and they weren't. This may seem like a big "duh" to some of you, but for all the years I have explained to friends and family that twi conditioned its followers by incrementally breaking down each person's individuality, and incrementally building up group-think in our brains, it only just really hit me why they could do that to so many of us for so long: because it was the central reason we joined the group in the first place.

I had a co-worker who was a Unitarian for many years. Then someone he knew was banned from the group. He refused to cut the guy off, but remained casual friends. They told my co-worker he had to either drop the guy or leave the church. Smart man that he is, he left the church. I think you can find small, local groups of any denomination that are completely open and friendly and helpful, but whenever you expand beyond local boundaries, the very definitions of a church's beliefs imply that anyone who doesn't believe the same thing is dammed. That really doesn't give you many choices, does it? The more zealous you are, the more you will believe those dividing lines are a good thing and the harder you will fight to uphold and maintain them.

I guess I don't consider what has been discussed here as gossip... in the first place I don't think anyone holds the kids accountable for what their folks have done so there is no animosity. Mainly there is curiosity. And hope. Hope that they might find their own hobbies, outlets and interests to pursue in life. It appears Leah has done so, and I, for one, am thrilled. I am not asking for "dirt" on the kids. Just wondering how old they are now and what they are up to, and if it seems like they are leaning toward secular careers or way ministry lifestyles. Is that really gossip?

It's called ACTING, and you don't have to work in Hollywood to be an actor.

Bolshevik, Any clue about what's going on with Tim or Dorothea? THW

I googled her and found this: http://www.leahfear.com/bio.html I don't know how current the info is, but since it has her married name it can't be too old.

It got far worse in the 90's under LCM. It started with Geer's directive not to do anything doctrinally new, but to review VP's stuff because we had all obviously "missed it" on the basics. People were afraid to do anything new, and certainly nothing "edgy". That carried over to every department at HQ. The other aspect was that Craig's ego was such that he thought every word out of his own mouth was direct from God. So, instead of letting talented people come up with genuinely motivating and uplifting music, he directed the topics they were to compose music about. And it is my understanding that if you were full time way prod, you had a quota of songs to write. That kind of production-line mentality doesn't usually translate into spiritual inspiration or genuine creativity.

There have been threads from time to time asking that very question. When the Allen lawsuit hit, a lot of us were just leaving and could give fairly accurate reckonings of attendance (from recent limb meetings, region meetings, and advances). At that point we figured something like 5000 adults and then their kids. Now that so many of us have been out for years, it gets harder to estimate. Some of the most analytical thinkers on the forums estimate maybe its down to about 3000. In my own area, it is definately dwindling. They have maybe picked up two new people and have lost about six, which would make 3000 a pretty reasonable guess.

I know someone who is still in... they keep telling me its a MUCH friendlier and more relaxed atmosphere. What kind of endorsement is that? "It's a lot better than it used to be." That's the best you can give me? Okay, so now you are allowed to schedule your own time, own your own house, and plan your own vacation. As far as I can tell, they never admitted restricting all those things was bad in the first place, so what has really changed? For people who will stay no matter what happens, I guess the changes are a good thing. But I'm not buying it. It's all surface and no substance. I mean, you can cover horse turds with chocolate but it doesn't make them good to eat.

Someone asked when they re-instated LEAD. They did so not long after 1990, which is when the 18th went on the field, and we did not go LEAD at all. However, Tinnie was sold and they said they could do just as good a job at Gunnison. I believe the Horneys were the first in-rez LEAD coordinators at that location. It was around the same time that they banished hitch-hiking. Again, our group was still hitching through fall 1990 so I'm not sure exactly when it was, I just remember some spiritual rant on a corps hookup about it being a new day and time, and not safe anymore (was it ever????) and being to the point of tempting God to put people on the road like that now, etc. Honestly, I had made up my mind to go and do my best if they told us we were going. That pretty well describes my mindset through all of corps training. I steeled my mind to hitchhike and did so several times (and have the stories, good and bad, to tell.) But mostly, everything got backed down during our years... re-evaluating as per Geer's instructions. (Let's just read and re-read the Blue Book.) Interim year is when the "stand with me or leave" letter came out. And our last year is when we all actually had hope that recovery was on the way... silly us.

My answer can pretty much be formed from bits of others' posts: Soon after I left, it was almost like a veil was lifted from my eyes and most of the twi doctrine simply unraveled before my eyes... --Groucho Marx, Jr. The number of errors undermined any trust that I might have had in either man's ability to accurately teach the bible. -- Oakspear It was at this point I saw that they [other people] have ideas and beliefs as well -- though not necessarily the one's I hold. Are they right and I'm wrong? Am I right and they are wrong? These days I don't care about that. --Bolshevik About all I can manage these days is *Love God and Love my neighbor* It is simple and it works for me after all of the years of *straining at gnats* --Rascal

Yes, people, indocrination truly works!! Haven't sat down to read a Bible in over six years, and I still got 100%. Glad someone appreciates all my time and effort in twi... lol.

I have to chime in here and agree... his Old Testament class was a highlight of my time at Emporia. Especially his OT is 60 seconds (or however short). Got my attention. I remember that the day the class concluded, the college program folks went roller-skating and he came along. He always seemed like a genuine person in the midst of a lot of wannabe mogs. And, like others have posted, I wish he would find a way to dis-entangle himself from the CES mess.

Bumpy... good to hear from you!! Things are well with me. Thanks for asking.

Out There, It definately did matter which kind of corps you were... if you expected people to stand when you entered a room, you were first in line at the food table. If you arrived early to help set the place up, you were probably one of the last people getting to eat, if you found time to eat at all. I certainly remember working events at HQ where you went from one job/responsibility to another, and it was pretty much on your own shoulders to get any food or rest at all. Young and stupid. I was just so young and stupid...

Listener, great post! It really sums up the attitudes we were taught.

I think that disconnect was always there... can anyone think of a time when Wierwille was truly about serving others? BUT, they always taught just what you are saying: it should be "Here am I, send me." Not "Here am I, serve me." How did that happen? We were taught that "true" service came in the form of "teaching a man to fish". (You know the old proverb, give a man a fish and he'll eat today, but teach him to fish and he'll be fed a lifetime.) So, everything leadership was taught to do was supposed to be to that aim: teaching people how to live their lives in order to have better lives. That was supposed to be our service. But I have found it so often to be the case that twi taught EXACTLY what the Bible said, and still practiced completely the opposite, and somehow reconciled the two in their/our minds. Another example of this is in Craig's WAP foundational class. He teaches about how the miserable comforters blamed Job for his misfortunes, and said that if someone is grieving over the death of a loved one, or trying to get healed up from a horrible sickness, that is NOT the time to criticize and critique them. In fact, in the class he was pretty adamant about it. That is the time to love them. There will be time enough for reproof and correction later he said. HUH???????? Then what the heck was Martindale doing all those times he reamed people out because a spouse died, or they had a sickness in the family? Reamed them out within days, even HOURS of the tragedy occurring! ---- Why, he was LOVING them up, dontcha know... by showing them the truth of the Word, you see. Teaching them how to fish. Uh-huh. Saving them from some continuation of the tragedy by helping them get back on track spiritually.... <_<

If any of you saw Craig's parents, Carrie looked a lot like her mom, whereas Craig had more of his dad's features mixed in... I never knew her well, but a guy I thought highly of from our corps married her, so I figured she was okay. As with so many twi marriages it didn't last. WE NOW RETURN TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD TOPIC.

I sat through a year of Walter's corps nights at HQ, and then a year of Martindale's (again at HQ). WC had me totally confused. Would set us a word study, we'd all work it and come up with some answer (all several hundred of us, coming up with basically the same answer) only to have him tell us it meant something completely different at the next corps night. Phooey!!! I really lost any respect I had left for their research abilities after that. Mostly just went through the motions for hubby's sake. Martindale's corps nights weren't all that bad, really. It was when he was teaching ACTS, and we got to sit in the OSC dining room at tables, instead of trying to balance a lap-board, bible, notepad, and any other required reference materials on your lap while trying not to elbow the poor person in the seat next to you for three hours. We also usually didn't do the retemories-testing before, or the afterglow meetings afterwards. We did retemory testing at breakfast with the Horneys and before some regular evening meetings/classes. And we always did an afterglow after the SNS. Actually, I remember being jealous of Corps Nights when I was at Emporia (College Program). We were all lead to believe that some marvelous, insider-spiritual stuff was being shared and we were missing it. HAH!

I sure never heard of any such tape. Wouldn't a copy of that have been just the smoking gun the lawsuits would have wanted? I doubt such a confession exists.

Oh my gosh, the CARDS... I'd almost forgotten about the cards.... It was NUTS. And because I had some arts/crafts background I almost always got asked to make the cards. I would have to come up with an idea and submit it to my leadership. Once it was approved I had to hand-make the bloody thing, and it couldn't be just something simple and nice. It had to be some elaborate, multi-layered, sparkly, Bible-quoting, @$$-kissing mess of a thing! But I'd better be sure I left enough room on the bottom page for everyone to sign!!! I specifically remember some poor guy not being able to squish his name onto the tiny line provided and getting completely humiliated in front of everyone by the leadership over it. Yeah... that was a blessing.

There is an extensive thread about that LEAD accident here (the one with the truck overturning): http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...amp;hl=accident But I've never heard about one with a lot of people losing toes or sustaining other physical damage, either. (Why am I still amazed at how much information the leadership kept hidden from us?)

I wasn't at Emporia until 15/13th corps days, so I'm not sure what Allen Gym project you are referring to... they never did do anything with the swimming pool. Said it was too expensive to fix the cracks vs the use the corps would get out of it. (you know, it didn't cost them anything to make us run our fannies off around the track) I honestly can't remember if they refinished the gym floor on the second level... probably because it was used all the time for basketball, and the corps under JL had a team that played in the townie league. Of course, the gym is no longer there at all... neither is Emporia Hall or Kipp Hall ((sigh)).