TheHighWay

I can't tell you all how much I appreciate everyone's thoughts on this thread!! I thought I was the only one who had to start all the way back to just "be a kind, considerate human being and look for opportunities to give and help others when you can" as my starting point. Yes, I think it really can be that simple. I don't know anything about God or what I believe about God and right now I just don't know that I care. I figure if God is all-knowing He knows I'm doing the best I can, and that I'm a far better person this way than I ever was when I was practicing various brands of religion.

So... when and where is this shindig that I've invited myself to?

I'll second that!!!

Groucho says I can come, too!! Whoo-hoo!!! Can't wait!!!

Hmmm... secret password? I can think of a lot of good words: I'll bring food I'll bring beer Beautiful Ohio Muck Fichigan Love them Buckeyes... Will any of those work?

Well, I'm not in Ohio, but I'm not far away. I often travel to Cincy and Columbus... can I come, too? THW

Vic loved to find "experts" in worldly fields and laud them to the sky, because he would follow that by saying that WE could do better because we had holy spirit and the rightly-divided Word of God, as given to us by the MOG and TWI. The whole thing was always intended to make Vic look better, not the 'worldly' expert!! That's why he would just go off the deep end when someone got a little too impressed with the guest.

Dooj, that is by far the best summary of the situation I've ever heard!!!

Good point... maybe because true servants of God wouldn't try to build that kind of following after themselves, but focus more of their time and energy on reaching people on a personal level and GIVING rather than GETTING. I'm just glad yet another one has been exposed!

I'm guessing that most of us at Greasespot never completely bought the farm, or we wouldn't be here... we'd probably still be "innies", refusing to acknowledge anything different. But, like PB and others, I came VERY close to it... I turned my entire life over to them for twenty years, and I was mortally afraid and ashamed when I found myself disagreeing with their conclusions or directives. It took things getting so bad that I literally thought I would rather have God turn his back on me (and maybe die as a result) than live the way I was living any longer, before I could wrench myself out of their grip. I'd say that's being in pretty deep!! I agree, though... the longer you are out, the more your own freedom becomes apparent to you. After seven years I barely spare a thought or snide remark about twi anymore (except when I visit here) and I no longer think finding a relationship would be impossible. It may never happen, and that's fine, but it's nice to know I'm not the one keeping the door closed anymore.

Twinky, I remember all the forms, reviews, and hoops we had to jump through to get into the corps, but looking back, I'm sure the only ones who got screened out were ones the local leadership didn't get along with or thought couldn't come up with the money!! What they really seemed the most focused on was: Did you take all the classes? (cha-ching) Did you get everything on your 'must have' list? (smoooooch) Did you get your tuition in on time? (cha-cha-cha-ching) Yes, I saw folks leave the corps for reasons other than money, but mostly it was because they wouldn't kiss up to the leadership. I know a few who were positively looney who they helped stay in as long as possible, and several who got the "lack of humility" label stamped on them as they were sent packing, which meant the local leadership would be on strict orders to have their nose all up in that person's business, if you know what I mean. We put so much unjustified trust in these people to have our best interests at heart. For instance, during my last year in-rez I knew some folks who were involved in grouping folks into their WOW families, and I learned very quickly that "walking by the spirit" meant "wildly guessing". To hear them talk they practically put pictures on the wall and threw darts to match people up!! That was one of many incidents that last few months of training that I closeted away and tried to forget as I was accepting my assignment and moving to someplace completely foreign to me to spend my time doing their bidding...

I sponsored folks a bit when I could, but mostly I received sponsorship as corps. I didn't mind asking folks I felt "involved" with, but I hated being pressured to make the kind of (cough) 'friendly calls' (cough) that Ductape describes, and pressured we were. (Like witnessing... any contact was a contact worth checking. We were told: maybe they are just looking for an opportunity to give...) I was always very thankful and humbled by those who felt that I was worth their investment and definately felt terrible when I left some of them hanging at the end. Of course, we weren't allowed to write and apologize or anything. So, my thanks to those of you saying that you considered sponsoring folks money given from the heart and not something "owed back" so-to-speak. It does relieve some of the guilt, because like Twinky, most of the folks who sponsored me are gone or lost to me.

Yup, that's it, exactly!! There is definately a point where you can cross over the line from "dealing with my crap" to "dwelling in my crap" and while the first is helpful and necessary, the second is unhelpful and destructive. But it is a fine line and maybe a close friend or family member might be able to know when someone has gone over that line and needs to "let it go, already" I don't see how anyone can make that judgement on face value, and certainly not over the internet, lol. So, I don't think most of us here mind the message "at some point, you need to get over it" I think what we resent is someone we don't know who doesn't really know us, saying THEY think its time for us to "get over it". That kind of statement just feeds the monster because (as penworks mentioned) we spent too much of our lives being told what to do, think, and feel and THAT is what we are really over with!!!

Great point, Penworks... how many years did we all spend holding our tongues? Not asking questions, not demanding answers and accountability... those questions and red flags don't "dissipate" just because we didn't say them out loud. Most of the time they stay with you, just hidden, until you can't hide them anymore and they all come spilling out.

Nero, thank you for asking the question. And everyone else, thanks for your answers. Lately I've felt like the mood here has shifted as more and more folks have joined the "just get over it" bandwagon. So much so, that I was pulling back and re-thinking my own reasons for posting here. (Was I just fooling myself into thinking I was helping anyone?) But threads like this affirm what I truly believe: this place is important. It helps people. Not because of the input of any one of us, but because of the input of all of us combined. Dan, Groucho... I doff my hat, fellas... VERY well put!!! THW

Nicole, Thank you for posting what you did. I appreciate your perspective. I think it gives some fresh thought to the subject. But I do need to comment on a couple of your statements. Yes, I think putting my innocence, faith and trust in a liar = me being blinded. Does my saying so here mean I haven't recognized my own willingness to put my faith so blindly in someone else? My own responsibility? I think this argument, which comes up alot here on the boards, is comparing apples to oranges. They are two different issues. I think most of us STARTED for good reasons. But I think most of us remained with twi (even through the 90's) because of a combination of our own good intentions and of the manipulative, fear-inducing tactics that had become standard in twi. They wove our own good intentions into their legalism, and used it against us. To walk away from their legalism (we were told) meant we also had to walk away from our good intentions (and God's blessings). Was that warped version of our original good intentions a "good reason"? Well, I'm sure we all thought so at the time, or we wouldn't have stayed. But what you read here at Greasespot are the thoughts of people who are looking back and realizing that all those "good reasons" we held so dear were, in reality, folly. Folly because they weren't based on truth. And admitting that to yourself and 'aloud' here on the boards is a big deal. You first have to admit a wrong was committed before you can recognize your own part in it. I think it is incorrect to condemn the majority of thoughts and posts here as negative, self-serving, or bashing. And I think there are plenty of threads and posts here that commend the "good folks" we all knew. If twi had been only evil all the time, none of us would have joined. It was the hope that the good folks would prevail that kept so many of us hanging in there for so long. I do think there are still people involved in twi who fit into this category. But I also think that they are few and far between. It is hard for me to see how anyone who was in twi through the Martindale lawsuits falls into this category. There were plenty of things that were questionable about how the ministry has handled all of it, even if you do believe that it was just a one-time consensual affair, as we were told. I don't personally know of a single person who went through those times who didn't have questions; serious question; lots of them. And those questions did NOT get answered. And they CHOSE to let it go and pretend it doesn't matter. I don't see how you can do that and still be "believing for the right reasons." Because at that point a choice is made not to stand up to the wrong, but to ignore it and go on, hoping it will resolve itself. At that point, in my book, you are no longer a victim, but at best an enabler, and at worst a victimizer. That being said, I don't think the posts here are meant to bash those people. I think they are meant to bash twi, the organizational structure; the leadership. I think most of us here feel badly for those who are still in, realizing that they are being used and decieved the way we were; trapped in a mix of hopeful good intentions and controlling legalism. What we express here is an anger that it happened to us, and an anger that it still continues to happen to others today. It is these very people who twi relies on to front their evil. It is how twi perpetuates itself. And that is frustrating. So, I appreciate your sentiment towards your own innocent upbringing and your parents good intentions and good deeds. I'm glad you've come to those realizations. I think you need to see both sides of the thing. But, at the same time, I don't think you should point fingers at the rest of us who still have things to work out and things that we think need to be said before we can say, "I'm just over it."

Hey, I remember napping in my back-jack!! Trying not to tip over or let my head fall too far forward so I didn't get yelled at... The Vicster definately tried hard to make us feel like we were sitting at the feet of the master when he visited campus... yeah, all (how many hundreds of us were on campus at the time?????) Riiiiight... But by the time the 15th corps came along, Martindale told them straight out that the days of sitting at the feet of the man of god were OVER. That they were so spiritually dull he couldn't open his life up to a single one of them. I was in the college program and remember his comments very clearly. I felt hurt and embarrassed and angry for the corps when he said it. I thought, isn't it his job to set the example of the 'master' to the 'disciple'? Doesn't that mean you are patient and expect your pupils to get better? Where does he get off saying something like that to these folks who have pledged so much to the service of the ministry!! I was SO unimpressed with him at that moment. Of course, I later got talked into joining the corps myself. And by then ol' Craig was telling us we weren't worthy to carry his jock strap. I can't believe we actually considered that an insult. Geez, we were blind!!! He did actually "open up" a lot to the 18th corps in our first year because it was just after the fog started and he was pretty dispondant when we arrived at HQ. He looked just terrible... all pasty and puffy and exhausted all the time. And he liked to come sit and talk to us, and tell us when he was excited about something or down or was thinking about some teaching or whatever. At the time, I felt privileged. Like he trusted us to hear his innrmost thoughts and feelings. Looking back, I think we were all a party to one long self-indulgent, self-absorbed pity party. When we came back for our last in-rez year everything was different. Loy was all fired up again and breaking it off with Geer. No more "openness" just a lot of reaming people and telling everyone where they had opened themselves up to evil when bad things happened. Oh, wasn't that space above the dining room at Emporia called the Ambassador Room? (and didn't Doc Vic steal the term afterglow from one of those other ministers that he stole things from... can't remember which one now...)

Congratulations!! What fantastic news! May life now bring you everything you hoped or desired... THW

Belle, I don't think you are a coward. I think you found yourself face-to-face with a monster, and instead of completely freaking out, you kept yourself together amazingly. I think you were brave and wonderful for trying so hard to keep your marriage together. You are not the one who failed. The people around you failed. They didn't do what they were supposed to do... your spouse did not revere you, twi-leaders did not revere the truth. Of course, maybe I'm biased, because your story is my story, too. Except my double life lasted less than a year before I got outed, and then divorced. But, honestly, I've talked to other gals who were in very similar situations to you and I, who took different approaches, and it still didn't work. If everything around you is broken, sometimes you just can't fix it.

OOOOOHHHH, yeah. Loved that little line. They would save that one for last, when they could tell you were not wanting to comply. And when you heard it, you knew they were drawing a line in the sand. There was really never any question that they were ORDERING you to do "whatever"... (remember, the suggestion of a general is tantamount to an order)... and by bring up the "suggestion" line, you knew if you didn't give in you would be on their crap list from then on, getting picked at for every little thing until they broke you or drove you out. Yea, it was just a "suggestion" alright. (In the words of Ronald Weasley, "... my saggy left...")

This was great!! Thanks for the laugh, I needed it today!! THW

Oooh... I missed it... well, happy belated birthday!!!! (glad you had a good one) THW

Have a great birthday, Catcup!!!!! THW

Wow... what an amazing site; amazing writer. Thanks for telling us about it !!!

You ask this question with Vic as the focus point. But I think that's backwards. To my way of thinking this isn't about what VP did 20+ years ago (his personal sins), it is about what he STARTED. Because it didn't stop with him. He taught others (lots of others) to follow in his footsteps, and the errors and hurt continue to this day. Ask anyone who has just left twi... So, let's rephrase the question: The truth will set you free. But the truth is that you put your trust in someone who took advantage of you. Are you sinning by discussing this person's sins against you and others on an open forum? To which, I reply: Isn't the Bible full of examples detailing the acts of wicked and deceived people, to help us learn, to help others not make the same mistakes? How is what we are doing here any different? Discussing what VP and his disciples did and continue to do isn't about THEM, it is about US. --- Why did we listen? Why did we believe? Why did we not question? Why did we eventually leave? Where do we go from here? What about their examples was positive? What was negative? --- It's about self-discovery and healing. That is the bulk of what happens here. Are there those who use this site to wallow in self-pity and never move on? Sure. Are there people who read the Bible and use it for wrong purposes? Sure. Does that mis-use mean we should void the content altogether? I don't think so.