TheHighWay

Am I remembering wrongly or was this whole "degrees of evil" teaching kind-of an offshoot of Craig's big study of the devil spirit realm? Remember he got so INTO how to define and recognize seed of the serpent people and named a bunch of well-known folks as being thusly influenced. Then he listed all the names for the devil and got real specific about the different aspects of each name... yeah, now THAT's edifying!!!

Oh, heck yeah! I forgot about Spike at Emporia!! It was HQ in the late 80s that had the Sea Salt... Sorry for the confusion! Of course, I LOVED Mr. Benni's wheat, folks!! I was really sorry to find out they didn't use it at HQ and I would gladly pay top dollar for it now if I had a clue how to get some (if the family even still produces it).

Well, I guess when I'm really honest with myself, it isn't that I disagree with Oldiesman's point about "truth being truth, no matter who's mouth it comes out of"... it's more that, because of who's mouth it came out of, I now seriously doubt that it is the truth. So, it's more that Sick-Vic's lies, lifestyle, and clearly un-godly practices are the stumbling block he put between me and what others would call the truth. Or, put another way: because this man's judgement on so many things has been found faulty, it is hard for me to believe it wasn't equally faulty when he "rightly divided" the word of God. And THAT is why the walk of the man is so important, Oldies...

Repeating, repeating, repeating... if only we could get everyone to understand this little tidbit!!

Oooohhhh, yeah. I could go on for days about both the state coordinator and the local moggy-wanna-be that was in our area. Both were big men and used their size and voice to intimidate. Both were unreasonable, hot-tempered babies who loved to find fault with others to prove how spiritual they were. Both imposed legalism and "spiritual freedom" alternately simply by their whim, and both falsely accused folks of evil works and drove them out of the fellowships, only to be proved wrong some time later. Of course, no apologies were ever made for the damage done. I got the chance before I left twi to stand toe-to-toe and eyeball-to-eyeball with one of them and not back down, (it's one of my sweetest memories) but I would still LOVE a chance to tell either one of these men what a complete and total arse they were!!

This DEFINITELY bears repeating (and repeating, and repeating and repeating)!!

Well, the head table got REAL salt and pepper while the rest of the tables got sea salt, kelp, and cayenne pepper. (as if black pepper and cayenne pepper were interchangeable!) The head table also got coffee and sweet/plain iced tea or hot tea while everyone else got water. But as far as the actual food at HQ or Emporia or Indiana on normal days, I don't recall any time as a head-table gal that they got different food from what everyone else was eating... not there in the main hall. Now, what they got at home was another story. They got whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted!! End of story. And everyone got "special" food during events. They usually didn't serve guests "fruit soup" for breakfast or yogurt and braun bars in their sack suppers!! That was reserved for us in-rez simpletons who ate whatever they placed in front of us (well, sort of). One of the best times I can remember was when the corps went on Light-Bearers and we college program duffers were left alone on campus. We were told to use up all the leftovers in the kitchen. We ate like kings that week!! I really don't remember the food from any on-campus events being especially bad or good. Of course, having recently lived there I was probably still used to it. I do remember the food supplied at the WIBP in the 90s was terrible!! Here we were paying TOP dollar for the fanciest of hotels, and had to pay for a pre-set meal package that way too expensive and offered just about nothing in return. Even the big BBQ/Dance food wasn't that great as I recall. Everyone was upset!! And the leadership was like: well, you should expect to pay more in a big city and if you cannot afford it you should be coming -- not that we really had a choice about attending...

Personally, I would have never chosen my current (ministry-designated) location. It's all the things you wouldn't look for when it comes to relocation (weather, terrain, economy, opportunity... all not great). But by the time I left twi, my kid was already in school, had life-long friends, and I didn't really want to take him away from his dad, so........ I do visit "home" a lot, and it has changed so much I couldn't go back, besides I never wanted to stay there in the first place. I've managed to do alright for myself here... okay job, okay house, okay neighborhood. But there is a part of me that is always aware of the fact that I didn't pick this place, and I wouldn't have picked this place, and if I were completely free to leave, I probably would (although I do have friends here I would miss). I think it is less about not liking it here, than about it being one more piece of twi baggage I would like to dump out of my life. So it's one of those "some day" dreams. Maybe when my kid grows up. Maybe when the house is paid off and fixed up. Maybe when I retire. Maybe never.

This is an excellent summary of how so many of us felt every single time twi would spring some nasty surprise on us... "it wasn't what I had bargained for, but I had already invested xx years of my life into it". Add to that, the arguments: this is God's ministry, I'm married to another believer, all my friends are believers... well, you can see how hard it became to say "no thanks".

I agree that there was always the expectation that a corps grad would serve "in some capacity" within twi. But what that capacity was, is what I think is in dispute. There is a huge difference between coordinating a local fellowship in the city and state of your own choosing, and being told that you either go to state X, city Y and coordinate the area, or you are dropped from active corps status, which is what so many of us experienced. As for "losing years of your life" if you walked away from the corps... by that I mean that whatever your expectations going in, if you finished the corps training, you must have some pretty firm beliefs in The Way International's goals, beliefs, etc. So, then you decide you cannot accept the assignment they are giving you. They drop you from active corps status. This usually results in great self-condemnation because you believe you have failed God and are a big spiritual loser (because you still believe in twi) OR you realize that this group is NOT working for God, and they don't care about your best interests, and that's when it dawns on you that you have wasted all those years and all that time and the prime of the youth of your life devoting so much of your time and resources to a group that wasn't what you thought it was!! Yes, the years were gone either way, but it is very much a person's awareness of the loss I am discussing. It is often the rude awakening of having your corps standing taken away that causes people to realize this loss.

I'm no expert but from what I've been reading beets have a lot of vitamins and trace minerals in them which help the body's circulatory, anit-inflammatory, and digestive processes. Most of the same things are said of blackstrap molasses, and both these things have high carbs and easy digestability to their credit as well. It looks to me like GB might have just been trying to strengthen Howard's body so it could fight off the encephalitis problem better itself, or even respond better to whatever medicines the doctors might have been giving him.

The obvious answer to this question has been given over and over again on this and so many other threads, and you simply don't want to accept what so many of us went through: the consequences of NOT submitted were too scary to contemplate --- (such as) ... being dropped from a program you just spent four years busting your butt to finish ... being told you were spiritual dirt ... being castigated in front of all your "peers" on a corps night ... losing all the friends you had in life because you've already aliented all your "earthly" friends and family ... finding yourself with nothing financially because you cashed in everything you had to go into training and pay the tuition ... losing however many years of your life that you had already dedicated to the way ministry, plus the time in-residence ... being afraid that the devil himself would swoop down and get you because you had turned your back on God's one true ministry I could go on and on here, but you get the point (well, most of you do).

Okay, I'm done arguing in circles. Some folks simply don't want to understand. Let it be.

WhiteDove, I don't think anyone here is saying they would want to train folks to participate in other people's groups... the concept was WORD IN CULTURE... so the corps training WAS indeed promoted for a time as being leadership training in the Bible that you could then take into AREAS OF CONCERN, INTEREST, and NEED where you worked, lived, and played so you could show other people how to be a successful christian. (and give due credit to your theology and practices, aka to twi) Not to mention, twi was supposed to be based on Biblical PRINCIPLES... so it wouldn't matter what field you wanted to go into, the principles should work across the board. Look at who they were promoting all through the early 80s... football players, rodeo cowboys, a judge, a wrestling coach, business men and women... people who had excelled at their professions and who had promoted twi at the same time. These are not ridiculous statements at all...

The thing is, training "leaders" can mean a lot of things... it can mean leaders within the structure of twi, or leaders out in the worldly businesses, it can mean leaders of fellowships. I think twi clearly bent the meaning whichever way the wind was blowing for them at the time. That there would be differences in application from one year to the next, and differences in understanding from one person to the next fits exactly with what I've come to know as twi-doctrine-and-practice.

You won't believe this.... after all these years of wondering... this morning I saw a set of footprints in the grass!! Brown, shoe-shaped patches of grass crossing through the corner of an otherwise verdent field of new spring growth. The old dude was right!!

Yes, it was a great teaching to keep the masses in line... If you left twi, you were evil If you left twi, and you were vocal about it, you were destructive evil If you stayed in twi but weren't very happy what was happening, you were unproductive evil Only if you supported them 100%, no questions asked, were you a functioning member of the Household of God (praise be!!) (baaaaaarf)

Thanks SoCal1, I appreciate your input!

Agreed... so often you see people who have come close to death become very humble and thankful and giving human beings because they realize that they've been given a second chance and they want to make the most of it. Seems like Uncle Howard took the attitude that god musta saved him because he was already doing things so right we needed his example here on earth... hah!

We love you, Excie!!!

I agree that this was probably a big part of the equation. Doc Vic had gained his celebrity status and didn't frankly need to keep as tight a rein on everything going on as much as Martindale, who was brought in as new prez against several higher-ups' better judgement, and suddenly was expected to do as well as, if not better than VP (who brought new light to his generation, remember) ... Honestly, if I were to feel sorry for Craig, it's when I think of his humble beginnings and how he was played by the master-manipulator just like the rest of us... I mean, in the state of mind I was in when I was a sold-out PFAL grad, if someone had come to me and started telling me I was destined to be the next moggy (which I believe VP did for years before the actual coronation) and brought me up the ladder step by step... who knows what kind of messed up egotistical psycho-mog I would have turned into??? I'd like to think that I would draw the line when it came to imposing myself on others the way he did, but I cannot honestly say that because I was never put in exactly his position...

(Rascal and Oldies... please... not this thread too!!)

Okay, this all fits exactly with my remembered time-frames. I went to a lot of conferences and ROAs my first couple of years in twi and remember there being a huge focus on "earthly achievements" supposedly accomplished or improved-upon by applying twi's principles for living God's Word. And then I was in-rez at Emporia with the 15th and 13th corps, which was when I started hearing the grumblings and the debate about being "called" And now that I've been thinking about this all morning, I distinctly remember Martindale telling our corps (basically the 16th-20th corps) that VP's original concept for the way corps was a sold-out-lifetime-commitment, which is how the first few corps were run, but that he'd had to water that down because he (the Vicster) spiritually saw that the caliber of folks coming into the corps previously were not going to raise themselves up to the level of gift ministers, (nevermind how many of them DID get ordained and run states and regions for twi) and so he had watered down his original goals temporarily until (god) told him to step it back up again... Craig used this as his justification for the commitment levels getting steeper and steeper all throughout the 1990s. (get out of debt, quit your job, lose the pets, don't have kids, attend all meetings, don't question anything...) Geez, it all makes sense now... they took advantage of the increasing numbers of potential tuition fees, errrr... way corps, by making the program enticing to the most people. Then, when they saw they couldn't control things that way, they started paring it down and used the increased expectations of commitment to winnow out anyone who wouldn't back them up 100%. Smooth... very smooth. (disgusting, dispicable, deceitful, and dastardly) But smooth. By the way, the phone hookups started in 1989 when Craig started teaching Corps Night instead of Walter Cummins. He taught the book of Acts, which he had just been teaching classes on, and he INVITED corps on the field to dial in to be a part of the teachings. At the end of the year he acknowledged all the groups who had dialed in for every corps night that year (stupidly excluding some who hadn't dialed in to all of them because they came in person to some of them!!) And since he had gotten into the habit of making announcements to the folks on the phone hookups at the beginning of each meeting, he decided to make it mandatory for all corps on the field to dial in, either singly or in groups, each week. It didn't take too many years for the meeting announcements to become the bulk of the meeting as Craig would find fault with someone each week and tear them to bits in front of the entire corps body. Sometimes he would even crack open the Bible and teach a few verses. Hear, hear

I was just getting into the ministry in 1982, and I went into the college program in 1984. I do vaguely remember hearing murmurings of corps folks at Emporia who were upset because they had joined up thinking they would take their training into their own career path and "move it out in the world" -- that the way corps was teaching them how to be twig coordinators -- and were now being told "a lifetime of service" meant they had signed their life over to twi's directives, and they were being trained on the path of ministers (as if you could train a gift ministry). And there was a lot of controversy about whether going into the way corps was a "calling of God" or not... seems like I remember them saying that the folks who left when the direction changed were simply not "called" and there was a very small window of opportunity where it was okay if they walked away from the corps training. Not long after that, 'leaving' meant you were turning your back on God. Does anyone remember the details of this transition? --- when it started happening, why it started happening, anything? Now that I think about it, it is remarkably similar to how they handled the whole financial purging situation when they supposedly stepped up the commitment level of the corps again in the 90s, to put everyone on the ministry payroll full-time. They let a lot of corps "choose" to drop. (yeah, yeah, I know that it was because they bit off more than they could chew and were trying to cover it up) But, their method of giving folks that small window of time to "walk away" from their corps status seems the same. -- of course, in this case it was almost the reverse: they told folks it was a calling and a lifetime of service, then told them oops, not really, we are going to override God on this one... it was really hard on a lot of folks to sort it all out and not end up condemning themselves for not being good enough, not pushing hard enough, etc. because in their mind they had made an unbreakable vow of service!@!!

I have to admit that I'm surprised by this. Maybe they felt they could talk about it since Howard actually recovered. Besides I don't think anyone ever claimed an infection was driven by spirit influence (as VP said about cancer -- oops). Actually, I doubt it... first because the related virus wasn't identified as an STD back then, and second because most of us were all far too worshipful to be poking fun or giggling about the leadership over anything. :unsure: I think it was just their habit to put a mysterious, spiritual spin on absolutely everything. Whether they actually believed it was an attack of the adversary, and Howard was healed by divine intervention, or if that was just a piece of moose-turd-pie dished out for the rest of us, well, that's anyone's guess.