TheHighWay

Well, maybe a look at the past will give you some insight into the present: In my case, I supported Martindale whole-heartedly when he was installed as President in 1982 because I didn't know any better. (I got involved in twi in 1981) All I knew was the company line which was that VPW listened to God and chose Craig to carry on the mission. Progressively jumping through hoops I ended up in the college program for a year in the mid-80s. And frankly, that was a completely enjoyable time. I learned a lot, felt like I saw God do some pretty cool things, and wasn't completely way-brained by the end of it. But my big mistake was that I then married a fella who was "in for life" and followed his plan from then on. We went into way corps training in 1987 and I watched things go crazy around me. At first it made me support Martindale more because it appeared he was being venomously attacked by folks who were hoping for a power coup. But by the time I left HQ in 1990, I had had enough personal encounters with Martindale and twi's flaws (and the arrogant leadership who didn't seem to care) that I just wanted to forget about them and focus on being a good leader in my assigned location. However, I soon realized that the crap didn't stop at the boundaries of HQ, and that I was woefully un-trained in the realities of actually helping people --- I was sick of it all within a year and would have just walked away if I could. But remember, I was married to a die-hard and by then, kids were involved, so I felt I needed to weigh my actions very carefully. Any discussion that disparaged twi or the leadership was either shut down or reported to said leadership by my spouse. I quickly learned to keep my thoughts to myself. That pretty much leads to a victim/captive mentality -- you can't act on your gut instincts to leave or scream or fight back, so you shut those instincts down so you aren't constantly in self-conflict -- you go along to get along. TEN YEARS LATER is when I was finally depressed enough, stressed enough, and unhappy with my life enough to contemplate making a break for it (quitting twi and the marriage). And then the lawsuits hit, pulling back the veil and allowing me to see that so much of what went wrong wasn't because of me, but was the result of a system that was terribly flawed in the first place. It was like the stamp of confirmation on all the questions and doubts that had been brewing in the back of my mind for a decade. But my ex? Still active in twi. Still won't talk about Martindale. Admits twi made some mistakes but believes they have no obligation to apologize. And thinks everything is now back to a "golden age" because the intense pressure of the 90's is no more. I think you can see from just my own personal example the variations of what even one person can experience, and still appear to be supporting twi. You stay because you believe. You stay because you hope. You stay because of obligations. You stay because of habit. You stay because you don't know what else to do. You stay out of fear. --- take your pick

I think that's a lot of it... while lcm ruled he went from one 'sensational' topic to the next. The more he stirred things up the more he personally stood out (for better or worse). That's the way he liked it. Today's leadership doesn't want to stand out. They just want to fade into the background so they can ride the golden horse back to the barn.

Twinky, if I remember right, VP died in spring of 1985 which means POP hit almost one year later. BUT, much of the fallout didn't hit the field until the following year. I know I only heard about everything in the spring of 1987... right before I went in-rez.

Well, twi has tried so hard to "play nice" at least on the surface since lcm got booted and the last of the lawsuits was settled. I don't think they have issued those kinds of rants in awhile. But neither have they issued apologies or anything recanting those policies or that behavior...

Well said, Groucho !!!

I was in twi in 1986 but still new enough and removed enough not to really see what was going on, plus by then I was "married in" to the mob and just couldn't leave. But I experieced what you described during the Alan lawsuit... by then I had had my fill of twi and was just about ready to chuck it all anyway, and then the lawsuit hit and it was my breaking point. Up 'til then I could still somehow justify everything to myself, but after that whatever illusions I had left were completely shattered and I felt free to leave, knowing it wasn't me that had failed.

Brushstroke, I have to admit, one of the big lures to TWI for me was that they seemed to be able to explain that nagging discrepancy between an all-knowing/all-loving God and all the pain and suffering experienced in the world today. By explaining the need for free-will in salvation, they both 'excused' God's allowance of Satan's uprising and fall (and the resulting evil in the world today) and 'defended' their belief that Jesus Christ cannot be part of a trinity. In order for a person's decision to love and serve God to be genuine, they cannot be forced into it; it must be a choice. Even the angels had a choice. In order for Jesus' sacrifice to be a valid payment for all of our sins he also had to do it by free will choice, which he really couldn't have done if he was already destined to do it as part of a god-head... he had to be a man with all the potential for getting it wrong, in order to truly get it right. So God is all-knowing and all-loving, but had to allow for the choice to be made. Satan chose badly. All suffering and evil in this world is a direct result of his choice and the fallout of that choice. So, anything bad that happens in the world can be blamed on Satan, either because people have willfully turned away from God's ways or done it through ignorance. Conversely, believing in God, with a thorough knowledge of God's Word, allows you to tap into God's protection and healing from all that Satan has done. You are in this world, but not of this world. You are God's kid and that comes with special rights and priveleges. Sounds good doesn't it? It sure sounded good to me!! But do you see the hook? With this belief system firmly in place, we can look at any situation that comes up in the world and know WHY. It's simple: someone is doing God's will and someone isn't doing God's will. But, how do we know who is who and which is which? How do we avoid falling into Satan's traps which he lays daily to subtlely ensnare the unwatchful? (Because the secret to his success is the secrecy of his moves, and he is very good at making the counterfeit mirror the genuine to trick people.) So how do we discern truth from error? How do we tap into that special protection and power God has willed to His children? By daily making the free-will choice of Good over Evil (no, it's even more subtle than that, we must make the choice of Best over Good!!) How do we know how to make that choice? We go to the Bible, of course... it is the complete manual on how to live a Christian life. But there are so many interpretations, how do we understand the real meaning of the Bible? By taking twi classes and attending twi fellowships, of course! And once we are doing that we are set, right? We have knowledge and we know how to talk to God, right? No, because one of Satan's "fronts" by which he tricks people is SELF... you think you are tapped into God but you can still easily be led astray. So check your thinking with leadership because there is safetly in a multitude of counselors!! After all, twi leaders study what the founder taught, and the founder dug into the Word cover to cover, looked at the Greek and Hebrew, and studied the texts and compared passages and studied other men's work to come up with the truth... We then, as followers, study the Word in order to come to the same conclusions our twi founder came to (that's why it's called RE-search). And if you don't come to the same conclusion, well... you just aren't spiritually mature enough to see it yet, or maybe you are really just a spiritual hitch-hiker, not a true believer at all, in fact maybe you should be booted out of the group to protect the rest of the followers from your negative, slothful, unbelieving influence... Frankly, even outside of the messed up twi method of practice, the biggest pitfall of this belief system is that it takes the most complex, nuanced problems and breaks them down into a simple: "This person is right" and "That person is wrong" mentality. Not only does this set the table for across-the-board policies and blanket finger-pointing, which almost always causes more harm than good, but I have found that most problems in life are just not that simple... they are a mixed-up mess of some right, some wrong, and some "I don't know" which cannot be resolved by blanket statements of good and evil.

You have summed up exactly how I feel. Congratulations on getting where you are!!!

And the hardest part is understanding that as nice as people can be to you, and as innocent as it all seems, there IS always a sell of some kind going on...

I don't think he is any of these things... I think he is an 18 yr old kid who likes a girl, and thinks he is now informed enough to watch his step and somehow avoid all the pitfalls we made. He thinks we are old school and painting the picture more extreme than it now is, and that he can handle himself because this girl is pretty cool, and her parents seem to be, too. How many of us thought the same thing when we were 18 and just getting sucked into twi? That's why I said to him that I was sure he would come out okay in the end, I'm just not sure he'll get there without being hurt... Ahhh, youth.

If you read through the multitude of comments on some of the news sites it becomes pretty evident that yes, they did just "marry spiritually" because the state doesn't allow polygamy. With no legal marriage, they aren't breaking state law. This also allows all these "unwed mothers" to collect welfare and virtually live off the state. They think they are "putting it to the outsiders" by doing this. In addition, this allows them to rearrange things from time to time, breaking up families and handing a "wife" of one man over to be the "wife" of another man when they see fit. Just an unbelievable situation. I know that the whole thing will be traumatic for the kids, because they have been taught their whole lives to fear the outside world. But I have to think that getting them out of there and getting them help is far better than just turning a blind eye to the whole thing. At least some of them will have a chance to recover and move on with their lives. But I'm fairly certain that many of the adult women, having lived this lifestyle for so long, would willingly go back to it when released. Just so sad...

As others have said, the "unspoken consequences" can be anything from a subtle pressure to "do the right thing because you know it's God's Word" to being declared "mark and avoid" which means being blacklisted from any and all twi activities and being bad-mouthed to all the folks you thought were your life-long friends, who will in turn no longer speak to you in fear of being black-listed themselves. Because we were taught that turning your back on twi is tantamount to turning your back on God and walking out from under His protection. In your case I would think the consequences for you would be that the parents would put the subtle pressure on their daughter to find another boyfriend, which she would dutifully do as a loving, obedient daughter in the Word. Why can't they just say up front what they believe and act accordingly? I think they genuinely believe they do and are. When I was taught Carnegie's methods as a tool I was told it was okay to use what whatever works because we are selling people on the eternal TRUTH, not just some man-made product. As I've said in previous posts, the biggest obstacle to genuine dialog with these folks is their deep seated belief that they are RIGHT, and that everyone else is NOT. They think they've studied the Bible more, analyzed it more, lived it more accurately, than any other group. How do you shake that belief out of someone? (if you ever find the answer be sure to let national security know so we can use the technique on the Taliban and others!) Also you need to realize that VPW built this ministry on a foundation of branching off from mainline Christianity, and of teaching "new truths" (well, truth forgotten by Christians since the first century). If you were to sit through most any twi class (or probably most teachings for that matter) you would be amazed at how often they teach something NOT the way it is written in the King James. They will tell you that a study of the original text or a comparison of the usage of this particular word or topic throughout the Bible reveals that it REALLY means "--------" (their current spin) and that true believers will behave "---------" (their current practice). Now, if those doctrines and practices remained consistant throughout the group and throughout the years, I would probably not have as much of a problem with them. But because VP also taught that God continues to teach those with willing hearts, and that the primary way to show your meekness to God is to show meekness to the leadership, the interpretation and practice of these same verses changes over time. Not only that, but what one leader allows another does not, and what one leader demands, another does not. There is almost NO accountability. So, while the methods and tactics used are universal (incremental steps, bait and hook, subtle coersion, build-up of fear, isolation from outside sources of information and help) -- the actual experiences can vary hugely. I had been involved in twi for six years, taken many of their classes and even spent a year in their one-year Bible College program when there was a major falling out between the leadership. Everything was a mess. But I was married to another twi person and we were scheduled to start their leadership training. What to do? I went into the training with the attitude that I would watch everything very carefully and reserve judgement, watching for the negatives, the inconsistencies, the problems of which I had been warned. Within six months of being there I was vehemently defending the ministry and its current leadership. Something I now look back on with embarrassment. It is just SO easy to get sucked in without meaning to... that is why we are all warning you so hard to be very, very careful.

... from the mouths of the innocent: she is telling you that her folks know you don't agree with their doctrine and that they will make any affiliation with twi your choice... (if only I had a nickel for every time someone told me something was "my choice") The unspoken consequences of choosing wrongly are what they won't tell you up front. ... well, you came here for an experienced point of view, and we have given you one (well, several). Do with it what you will. I believe you will be fine. I hope you won't also be scarred.

Even though I'm closing the barn door after the horse has left, so-to-speak... If I have a nerve hurting, Alleve is the ONLY thing that helps the pain (but be careful, it is naproxin sodium so taking a lot of it can make you retain water -- my ankles were like an elephant's at one point) If I seem to be getting an infection, taking a fairly large quantity of garlic tablets will usually knock it out (natural antibiotic) but I've found I also have to take some acidophilus at the same time or I will end up with an internal imbalace (yeast infection)!! Wish I'd known about the dent-temp stuff awhile back when I had a small hole in a tooth but no money to get it fixed right away!! Hopefully I won't ever be in that position again!! I also had never heard of clove oil. I'll have to look that up and add it to my arsenal.

Brushstroke, I know you are getting hit with a lot of hardline stuff here... I'm sure by now you realize how many of us have experienced the worst of twi and are quick to try to warn others away. Today's twi has "softened" and seems more easy-going so no, it doesn't surprise me that your gal's innie parents are letting her chat with a guy online, or that they would welcome your visit and even be willing to answer your questions. I don't think they would stop her from attending a church service of your choice. They may even seem casual about you joining twi, but just be watchful. The softened attitude is only on the surface, it really doesn't go very deep. There is always, always, always, always a hook hidden somewhere in their actions, because they simply believe with all their being that they have the right doctrine and others don't. That core belief drives everything else about them. Don't ever swallow the hook. Stay thoughtful. Stay true to yourself. If you do those things you will know the right decision when it presents itself. It may not be the easy road to take, but it will be the right one for YOU, and that's the best choice you can make.

There's the hook I was waiting to hear about... the first step that she offered to you in good faith, because she has been raised in this stuff and doesn't know anything else. The bottom line is: most folks in TWI are trained to believe they are right and everything else isn't worth talking about, except to point out how wrong it is, or to convert someone. Period. Ooh, can I please be a fly on the wall for this conversation? You have hit the situation right on the head... her folks are seriously into twi, and the kids just go along because their parents tell them to... But what you need to realize is that most twi parents don't have a CLUE that their kids aren't that into the ministry. Not a CLUE! They are so committed to the group themselves, and they believe they have done all the right things to raise their kids, they just cannot, will not, consider that their kids are unhappy, uninspired, see the falseness and hypocrasy, etc... nope, not their kids. And they will not appreciate you saying it about their daughter, you can be sure of that! By the way, I say all these things from experience having been a parent both inside and outside twi, with an ex who is still in for life. My final advice -- there is a lot of wisdom and experience to be had on this forum. Read and evaluate carefully. Walk your own path but ALWAYS keep an eye out for the hook!! The Way International functions by incremental steps... first read this book (the blue book: The Bible Tells Me So, amazingly enough) Then come to fellowships. Then take this class. Then tithe and abundantly share (over the tithe). Then... and the steps just keep on coming. Those of us who spent 20 years in the group and went through almost every class, every special event, every training opportunity can tell you we were still treated like we knew nothing and needed to humble ourselves to the leadership's instructions and keep stepping along those steps... keep proving your spirituality, keep proving your commitment, blah-blah-blah... it never ends. Never. Good luck in your choices and your life's destiny. The fact that you are checking out all sides is a good indication you will do fine in life. Just trust your gut, and don't let anyone else override your own best judgement and intuition!!

Yeah, but he was pushing those teachings long before that... at least by 1985 because that's when he came to Emporia and taught on the names of Satan and how to recognize seed to the corps (we CPs got to sit in) and that was when he was developing AOS (men in tights) so he was going over all that material "again" making me wonder now when he really got on a roll with that? Clearly, now that I think about it, it was well before the POP popped because ol' Vic died in spring of 1985, and Geer charged in the following year. And somewhere along the line Craig shifted focus from seed to Acts, and got on a many-year roll with the great statements, culminating in his teaching that subject for corps night in 1989-1990 (his first year ever with that responsibility). Sorry if I'm rambling, I'm just really curious now about the time frame and how what he was focusing on corresponded with what the rest of the ministry was going through...

Imagine, as a basic sentiment, I agree... however, it didn't take long before my eyes read the King James, but my head recited someone else's "translation according to usage"... so, can it really be said I was reading the Word all those hours I spent studying the Bible? Unfortunately, I seriously doubt it.

Oh, crap, that leaves me out!

Thirty years ago, I had not yet heard of the way international. I was a christian searching for the answers I wasn't finding in my local denominations. I was just about to give up on god totally. One year after that, a friend took PFAL and started telling me about twi. Wow, it's been a long road from there to here. If I had just taken PFAL and then walked away, I think I would still believe most of what I'd been taught. If I had just gone thru the College Program, and then walked away, I would have felt like I was well-versed in the Bible cover-to-cover, and well-prepared for whatever might be out there in the great, wide world. If I had walked away when Ralph D came through town warning folks of what had gone on behind the scenes, I would have counted myself lucky to have missed all that crap. If I had walked away after corps training when I saw a lot of things first-hand and knew for certain that all was not right with the way, I would have known I gave it my best shot but couldn't help save twi from itself. Instead, I walked away only after enduring the 1990s, and seeing the crap overflow the plumbing at HQ and seep out onto the field, contaminating almost everything it touched. Now I believe almost nothing they taught, but I am a happy person in spite of it all, and mostly content with my lot in life. What a journey it has been...

Oakspear... congratulations!! Amazing what you can accomplish when you are allowed to use your time and money for your own family, lol.

WE LOVE YOU, Pawtucket !!!! Mwah!!!

This is exactly what I was thinking as I was reading through the last several posts... sometimes what looks like quitting to one person, might just be correcting a mistake or moving on to someone else for someone else. In my lifetime, I have tried several occupations, each of which called upon some talent I thought I had. And as I discarded these occupations, one-by-one, there were definitely those who called me a quitter. Folks who thought I didn't give things enough time or just didn't know how to stick it out. Sorry folks, I spent 20 years "sticking it out" in a marriage that never did work, in a religious group that didn't work. And what I learned is, if my gut says "this isn't working for me" I am the only one who can truly determine if I've given it my best shot, and have reasonably assessed why it is time to change or move on. And in my experience, if it truly isn't working for me, it truly isn't working for the other folks involved either, no matter how much they try to say it is. The end result of all my "quitting"? I now have a job I thoroughly enjoy and could see myself doing for the rest of my life. And, oddly enough, this job uses bits and pieces of many of the different things I tried earlier in life. And if I hadn't tried them all, and gained those bits of experience and training, I don't believe I would have been well-suited for this job. Bottom line -- a person should never be forced into following someone else's direction for their life. When you think about it, why is there all this confusion about what twi meant by "commitment" and "service"? Is there any confusion about what the Armed Forces mean when they recruit you? Is there any doubt that they own you for a specified number of years? Is there any question that you will accept their assignments, even go to war, or face the consequences? Is there any question that at the end of your term you have a choice to leave or re-sign? VP says he patterned the way corps after the marine corps. Why didn't he just say, straight out, what the terms of service were? Because twi thrived on vagueness and innuendo. It was their stock in trade. It allowed them to shape the commitment to suit each recruit and bring in the most people. If they had been straight up, we wouldn't be having this debate. There wouldn't be any questions about the meaning of the terms. It's just that simple.

This is absolutely born out in their maxim that you cannot be a good leader until you know how to be a good follower... the way corps was about training people to be good followers. Then they hand-picked the ones they wanted to be leadership. Anyone who went through the training knew from very early on who was on the fast track to leadership, and who wasn't. And it didn't always have to do with who had the right heart, talent, or people skills!!!

I don't know that Craig said it was original research... I don't think I said that... I was just trying to remember the time-frame of it all, and thinking that he was making a big deal about this not long after he did the whole "seed-specific" teachings, but now that I think about it more, it seems like this big push came after the POP fallout, when Craig was dealing with all the different levels of commitment he was getting from people... and trying to justify dropping anyone who didn't whole-heartedly agree with him...