TheHighWay

Cowgirl... did you ever figure out what this was? OR did it just not ever happen again?

Watered Garden, everyone has to find their own peace in their own way, but for me it helped to understand the "not forgiving" didn't mean the same thing as "wanting revenge". For a long time I didn't think I could move on because I knew I couldn't forgive those who hurt my family. First off, they didn't ask for it, and second off they didn't deserve it. But at some point I realized I didn't have to forgive to let go. There is a great scene from a silly Bill Murray movie called Meatballs, where he is the camp counsellor to a group of misfits who are going to lose the annual competition BIG TIME and look ridiculous doing it... and he goes into this long "inspirational" speech that ends with him screaming "It just doesn't matter!!!!!!" over and over again. And that's where I find myself: in the big picture, in comparison to what I now think is important in my life, when placed alongside my real priorities and concerns, the actions of some self-important, overly-religious, heartlessly-legalistic, brown-nosing mog-wanna-be, son of a sob who thought he could make himself a bigger man by lording over me and my family is nothing more to me than a speck of dirt on a flea's nose on a pig's butt. Insignificant. Unimportant. Not worth my time to bother with. "It just doesn't matter!"

That is exactly how I felt when I read your story -- like, YES!!!

I don't know for a fact, but my feeling on this is NO, they wouldn't. Mostly because they don't recognize the condition in themselves. It's all they know how to be, and they assume everyone else is the same way. They only appear to make alliances with people to get what they want... if you paired two of these kind of people together I suspect they would quickly be working against each other instead of with each other.

Just an EXCELLENT analogy!!!

Oh my gosh, that was too funny !!!! Thanks for the giggle...

Bowtwi, I never experienced anything as horrible as you did in twi, but I did have someone basically "break" my family financially and because of that, emotionally in many ways!! And like you, I took a chance that came my way to confront and question the person, and like you I got a very lame response. (oh, my, gawd... how can these people not REMEMBER you or doing something that dramatic and traumatic to you????????) Mine also didn't remember doing any harm at all, and gave me a vague sort of "gee, I'm really sorry if something happened that hurt you..." like it was all in my own head or something. But, like you, I also went through a very cathartic experience and I realized that by facing this, I was taking back the power I had handed over to him. I guess I was basically admitting to myself that I HAD allowed him to do this damage, (even though it was out of innocence and a pure heart) and now I would never let anyone do that to me again. And now, when I think of this person, I just shake my head and feel sorry for him that he is the kind of person who goes through life very selfishly, and he will miss so much of the best things in life because of it. I can't say I've forgiven him, because I believe a person has to understand the harm they did and ask for forgiveness in order to get it, but I no longer carry that baggage around with me. I have set it in the closet and closed the door. It is still there, in case he ever does want forgiveness, but I no longer give it a thought, and it no longer adds weight to my daily load. I'm so glad to hear you have been able to do the same with this awful piece of baggage. You go, girl !!!!!!! THW

No, no... that's the OTHER Steve Spielberg. That's why at HQ we called our Steven the REAL Steven Spielberg, lol. I didn't know him well, but he always seemed like a decent guy. I'd love to know what they are up to today.

That's a point that should be repeated !!!

In my opinion he didn't give it a thought... I don't believe he thought he was doing anything wrong, so I don't believe he thought he had anything at all to do with the suicide. It is just not in a predator's mind to link themselves to actual consequences.

Love the way you put that !!!!

Boy, and that's a really good point too... we each joined the group at the point we were looking for something and thought we'd found it with twi... so for each of us, that starting point is when things (to our eyes) seemed good in twi. And when things got bad for each of us, it seemed a corruption of what we first knew. That is just an amazing truth, Oak. Especially since twi was so good at hiding the facts about their own past, while proclaiming consistency, none of us had much of a concept of what came before...

While I certainly heard "all the women in the kingdom belong to the king" taught a number of times I never heard any direct correlation made between that old testament concept and today, or twi's leaders. However, knowing how twi used subtext to plant ideas in people's heads, I've no doubt in hind sight what was being implied. BUT, I also repeatedly heard teachings on Romans "our freedom in Christ" being specifically taught to mean that bed-hopping was okay as long as everyone involved was spiritual enough that it didn't become a 'stumbling block' for them. This was usually quickly followed up with the comment that for "most" people it would be a stumbling block and that we had to take care of our brothers and sisters in Christ, blah-blah-blah. Let's face it... in some egomaniac's mind, every girl he wanted would magically become 'spiritual enough' to handle it, even if she had the presence of mind to say NO to a MOG, which most didn't. And there is no question that this teaching and other comments made by vic are what led to the idea that you can scr*w any unbeliever you want with no consequences at all, which happened a lot. And then there is the way in which vic got around his own teaching of "spiritual maturity" as a criterion, which was to "minister sexual healing" to gals who he knew had been abused. And I'm quite sure in his own mind he was doing just that... of course most sexual predators think they are doing their victims a favor, don't they?

I haven't seen any of the offshoot groups manage to separate whatever doctrines they decide to keep or modify, from the basic structure and practices of twi fellowships. I think the point is that all the deeply-igrained concepts of hierarchy, etc. that came from twi (whether they are stated doctrines or not) are the kind of baggage that can easily bring a group down from the inside out.

Well, bfh's comment about sticking around because you somehow think you can get back to what it what it once was, really struck a chord with me!! I know I did that for YEARS and years and years, not realizing that "what it once was" wasn't attainable because it wasn't real to start with. Just a very profound thought there, bfh!!

Wow, is that ever an importance concept!! I know someone who fell in love, got married, and tied up her finances very quickly with a guy she thought was everything she was looking for, only to find out there wasn't a single thing he had told her about himself that had been the truth!! (not his age, background, work history, financial history, family ties... nothing) In the time it took her to figure that out, he'd eaten through her life savings and put her deeply into debt. She divorced him. But she can't get over him. Why not? Because she can't let go of what he was like in the beginning. He was kind, caring, thoughtful, generous... and she keeps saying she doesn't understand where that man went? She really cannot bring herself to face the fact that this was just a mask hiding the real person inside -- the selfish, callous, mean, violent man she saw after they were married. She keeps looking for a REASON for the change, and will not admit that no change happened, just a lifting of the mask. That's what folks who cling to their love of the vicster and of twi remind me of... my friend who wants so badly to believe in the dream that she'll deny the reality right in front of her to do it.

Well, when you say it like that, it sounds cool... but I was far from cool. I was a wreck. I was terrified. I was lost. But I was also mad. And that gave me the strength to be defiant. I didn't know what I was going to do next but I knew it was going to be MY choice, not theirs.

Hmmm... First I was asked what gave me the right to disobey my leadership? (in turn I asked, what gave them the right to tell me what to do in my private life?) Then I was told I always did try to wear the pants in my family. (to which I responded, if my husband had worn them like he was supposed to I wouldn't have to) We then proceeded to: Rebellious Unremorceful Wicked and finally Mark and Avoid (at that point I was so convinced I was right that I actually smiled at my mini-mog and said, thank you)

That was their biggest cover at the time... without the kind of communication available today (cell phones, internet) most of us only knew what happened in our particular areas, even if we did have friends all over the country. We were taught not to speak ill of our fellow believers so hardly any of us realized that this was going on all over the place!! If we had known, many of us would have left long before we did.

Yeah, now that you mention it, that is exactly what many of us thought. Same with Craig. I remember being told he was the epitome of a disciplined believer, and how we should pattern our own lives after these men... it was such a shock when I found out how wrong that was... and now, eight years later, it's actually a shock to think I ever believed these men represented the best of the best of God's best. They were a disgrace! Thanks, dmiller for pointing out the stark contrast between the good folks who actually went out WOW, and these corrupt jackals who sat at home and took the credit. (edited for a typo)

But it was a good ramble...

That is a very accurate description of what happens! Thanks for posting.

Quoted from another current thread ---- I've said it before, and I'll say it again... a cult, is a cult, is a cult. The exterior may look different. The actions taken may be different. But the issues, methods, and mindsets of both the leaders and the followers of all these groups is, in my humble opinion, IDENTICAL.

You know, I really don't know the answer to that... my experience is limited to just a couple of still-ins. But my guess would be that she would say that he was a man who sat at the man-of-god's feet, and yet let the power go to his head and did some bad things that really strayed from what our-father-in-the-word taught us, but once it was found out he was removed. And now the minstry has moved away from the methods he used and gone back to its original vision. That's pretty much the song and dance I get from my ex. What she won't tell you is what Martindale did or that VPW trained Martindale to think and behave this way. (if you press her she may say that he got caught in a one-time consentual affair) She won't tell you that it went on for years, with married and unmarried women, sometimes with and sometimes against their will, and with not only the knowledge but the support of the top leadership. She won't tell you that he was named in more than one lawsuit for it. And, she won't tell you that they only removed him as president because of the lawsuits or that they only removed him from the ministry because of court testimony that made him a liability. She probably won't tell you that he single-handedly shifted the focus of twi from "outreach" to "internal purging" and became so vulger in his teachings and letters that some of us could hardly stand to sit through them, and that many, many innocent people were accused of things with no more proof than "spiritual suspicion" and that many homes and lives were broken up to make local leaders look good in his eyes. She also won't tell you that they still sell his books even though the teachings, writings and music of other "copouts" was immediately stripped from the bookstore, or that his syllabus (only slightly altered) is still used as the basis for their current foundational class (it is just taught by a different set of folks now). She won't tell you that he is still financially and emotionally supported by twi. And she won't bring up the fact that his ex-wife is best friends with the current president of twi and therefore was not asked to leave (like every other wife was booted along with her hubby, if he got booted) but got to keep her cushy job and her cushy house at HQ to this day. But that's just my guess...

Chances are good she wasn't at all aware of the way she sounded to you. But I would guess that she was habitually choosing her words very carefully. See, in order to defend the current twi you have to somehow laud the past but defend why it has changed without ever mentioning the lcm era... quite a trick. I beg to differ. I saw a new documentary on Jonestown about a year ago. They interviewed folks who were "leadership" in the church, and the things that came out of their mouths could have come out of my own mouth about twi at one point. And what do you call the farm in New Knoxville, OH if not an isolationist compound where the leadership rule with an iron fist? Just because they don't have death drills don't think they aren't EXACTLY the same at heart. It is very typical that she couldn't define a twi concept in her own words. I have often found conversations with my ex to be loaded with twi jargon and catch-phrases. And he often discusses things that have no twi context at all by quoting whole passages verbatim from twi texts. He doesn't even realize he's doing it. And when we were splitting up and I said I didn't think he knew how to think for himself anymore he scoffed, then went in the next room and called the leadership to find out how he should respond to my accusation. (I kid you not.) It confirmed for me like nothing else could that there was no reasoning with someone that far out of touch with his own mindset and behaviors.