Bob

I recognize that link ;)-->

I had forgotten about this thread. One of my "I'm frustrated" days and needed to throw a punch back at TWI. I agree with you Belle. If the posts hadn't had some semblance of credibility, I would probably still be drinking the kool-aid too. I'm glad we stopped. It didn't even taste very good.

To be honest, I would be most happy to consider Belle my friend. Discussing our similar experiences together has done more for me these last few weeks than anything in the last 3 years. It's hard to express. Hopefully I've been able to return the same to Belle. Belle, I don't care if you're not all sugar and spice. You're something special.

There's no end to it either.

I don't use PFAL's "keys" for critiquing it. Standard research and logic suffices. As far as thinking there was anything good in it? Maybe for some people. If it makes you happy, that's fine with me. I'll just duck when the debates begin. Personally, I think I would have been better off never taking the darn thing. At one time I bought into it, but since I've added some pertinent books to my reading time over the last three years, which have encouraged me to think about things, not just accept them, I've pretty much tossed the whole class.

I feel dirty for pretending to play the role of a brain-dead wayfer. Where’s excathedra? I need forgiveness and to pay my penance.

You're a sweetheart Andrea. I'm glad your current relationship is making you happy.

Cyber love. The wedding is performed in the chat room. Paw performs the ceremony. Pictures of smiley faces dancing and kissing litter the Every Picture Tells a Story forum. Latter, little smiley faces crawling and crying start showing up in the forum. Then one day, Paw starts banning posters for spelling and grammar errors. Tells everyone to avoid contact with them, no email, no IM. If they want to come back, they must spend 6 months reading all posts in the Doctrinal forum and submit a 20 page write-up summarizing it. Belle protests to me. She can’t find anything in the forum rules that would allow Paw to do such a thing. I say it is for their own good, and for the good of the online community. It is the loving thing to do. Banned posters gather together and start an Ex-GSCafe site. Belle starts visiting and posting on it, without telling me. Then one day scandal hits. Paw is caught posting copyrighted pornographic cartoon images in the Every Picture Tells a Story. A lawsuit is filed and goes public. Paw admits an error in judgment but claims the copyright was consensual. The other moderators start covering for him, saying it is only one man’s sin and doesn’t change anything. The online community is in an uproar. How could people be banned for misspelling THE and Paw get nothing? Paw voluntarily steps down as administrator of the site. A behind the scenes moderator is put in charge. Paw is put in charge of the Doctrinal forum. Months pass but the GSCafe community is still in uproar and losing posters daily. The top moderators get together and decide GSCafe can’t continue with Paw and place him on double secret probation and suspend his ID. Paw continues to moderate GSCafe behind the scenes, using an ID no one would recognize. The Ex-GSCafe site has ballooned. Its main function is to expose GSCafe and support recovery for those you have been hurt by it. Belle is a prolific poster there, under an assumed ID. Everyday, Belle points out yet another reason why she thinks GSCafe is wrong. I dismiss it as being lies. She is only trying to trick me into leaving. Belle eventually tells me to choose between GSCafe or her. I choose GSCafe, looking forward to the future rewards and status level for attaining 10,000 posts. Years latter, there are only 3 posters left on GSCafe. We are a loyal group and witness daily to its greatness in other newsgroups, attempting to attract new people but it never happens. Then one day, the site just shuts down. I am devastated. All my posts are gone, my status level is gone, I have nothing. Belle sends me an email. It only has three words: “told you so.”

TIMESTAMP: It's slooooowwwwww right now.

Are you suggesting you're not all sugar and spice? lol. I could talk with your ex, but I have a feeling it would sound a lot like talking with my own ex, which has curled my hair enough already. :)--> I like our sides of the story much better. I have a theory on my question. I think it is similar to what was going on in the 2nd – 4th centuries with Christian martyrs. I’ve been doing quite a bit of reading concerning the history of this period. Fascinating, especially knowing its affect on the last 2000 years. These people were given the choice between living and a torturous execution, usually by having animals rip them apart or, if they were a Roman citizen, by beheading. All they had to do to avoid execution was to perform their legally required sacrifices to local Roman gods. They didn't have to mean it, only had to go through the motions. Yet, so many of them chose death and stood steadfast to the very end, some enduring hours of torture before dying. Factors influencing their decision: They believed the Roman gods were devil spirits, members of the fallen angelic realm of Satan (Interestingly, Christians at this time were labeled atheist because they denied the existence of the gods, insisting there was only one God and one enemy of God). They believed there was a great spiritual war going on between God and the Devil, one which God had already won via Christ and the Devil is only going down kicking, trying to make life miserable for humans. They believed Satan worked through people, as his agent, especially via the Roman government. Even just going through the motions of the sacrifice was giving in to Satan. The church leaders encouraged them to stand their ground and accept the execution, saying they would receive the greater reward in the after-life. So, Joe Martyr believes he has all the answers to every question plaguing humans since the dawn of time – where did we come from, what is the purpose of life, etc. Joe Martyr has accepted this belief as truth. This gives Joe Martyr peace of mind and a sense of purpose in life. It becomes almost a drug to him. Joe Martyr also believes that anything or anyone that causes one to doubt his belief, by definition, must be an attack of Satan. Therefore, no questioning or doubt of his beliefs is permitted and his brain will automatically reject such, dismissing them as either lies, or explaining them in a way that lets them fit in with his already accepted beliefs. Joe Martyr goes to his death believing he has won a victory for God. Did he? If there is a day of reckoning, I suppose we’ll find out. But my brain leans toward thinking he gave away his life and got little, if anything in return. I see similarities between the martyrs of early Christianity and the way my ex acted and thought. This biggest point being that she stopped accepting questions or doubts concerning TWI (probably long before she even met me). Given such a mindset, is there anything that would act as a valid question or doubt? From what I’ve observed, there is none. She is like the martyr, willing to sacrifice all. Then again, I may be over-simplifying things. I don’t know. I think there’s something there.

I'll see your raise and raise again. :)--> This was a hard one for me also. After I left TWI, she would no longer talk to me about anything concerning TWI or the Bible, or just about anything else that was a serious topic. She saw me as trying to trick her out of her standing with TWI and would put up her mental defensive shields anytime I tried to speak with her. I had become, in her eyes, the serpent in the Garden of Eden. Just talking with me put her at risk of losing paradise. True, I would have loved for her to quit that group, but at this point, I just wanted to know how she really felt about my questions and concerns. All I would get was, "why don't you talk to [local LC] about it," or "I'm not leaving TWI," even though the question had nothing to do with her leaving or staying with TWI. I was becoming very lonely. The worst part was knowing that she would open up to her "leadership." She would be completely honest with them and tell them everything I was craving to know. TWI had her love and respect, I had none. At this point, the only reason we were still married was because TWI allowed it. They could pull the plug anytime they wanted, they knew it, and eventually did. I suppose if you were to put it in light of keeping vows, this was where she strayed. Wow. You definitely have some admirable endurance. I lasted 6 months from the time I decided I wanted out of TWI (just after the lawsuits hit) to actually leaving. We were running a fellowship and those last 6 months were extremely difficult. I was such a hypocrite, which I do not like being at all, promoting TWI while detesting it. I'm also not very good at being a hypocrite and it was becoming obvious to everyone. I was only doing it to buy time for my wife to "wake up." Never happened. When they finally demoted and assigned us to another fellowship, I couldn’t do it anymore and decided to just not go. It was the last time I had a real conversation with my wife and felt close to her. I think you were right in fighting for your marriage. You were fighting TWI for it. Unfortunately, as has happened too many times, TWI won. They stole it from you, along with all you put into it. I hope to God that TWI will someday be held accountable and pay for all the damage they have done. Belle, if you’re even half the woman I see in reading what you write, your ex is either blind as a bat and couldn’t see what he had, or just a damn fool. You seem like such a caring, giving, loving, and honest person. The one question I still cannot find an answer for: How can anyone love a religious organization, which only takes from you, more than their spouse, who only gives to you? All for the promise of some supposed future rewards?

Dartanian, I feel for you. I don't know the specifics of what you're going through, but I know somewhat of how it feels. It is painful. About the only thing I could suggest is getting some professional help. It sounds like it may be a bit late for marriage counseling, maybe not, but at least some for yourself. I didn't, but wish I had. It's always helpful to have someone either validate what you're doing right or show you how you could be handling something better. The other thing is, please don't use your kids against your spouse, even if the other is. It only confuses and hurts them. Probate courts don't like it either, whose only concern will be the kids. People have lost custody of their kids for doing such things. I think the technical term for it is parental alienation. In the past, I was very tempted to pit my kids against my ex, putting blame on her (and TWI) for everything so they knew what happened, etc. I'm so glad I did not (nowadays, I wouldn't know who to blame anyway). My kids know I love them and will do anything for them, including spending as much time as I can with them. We've made the best of a bad situation. Although they would like to see the "family back together," they do not, and never will, feel like they need to choose between Mommy and Daddy. They also get double Christmas presents, birthday presents, etc (they deserve it). I hope your 2000 mile move is not in response to what is going on with your marriage. But again, I don't know your specifics, and can't or shouldn't be giving advice. Got a good ear for listening though, as most people here also have.

Holy Spirit is neither Holy or Spirit. Discuss amongst yourselves...

The proverbial worshiper of the devil, seed of all that is evil, starters of wars, doomed to the lake of fire.... Could it be that Rosie is....Seed of the Serpent?!?!?!?!

Didn't they have some teaching about people speaking with winks and finger movements, working in the background, where they couldn't be seen, but the whole time pulling the strings? What did they call that???????

I would be up to attending anything east of the Mississippi. Would be nice to meat some of the people I've read so much about.

I'm not sure I understand what you said My3c. If I follow what you're saying, it seems that the end result that would solve the problem would be to end marriage as we know it. Perhaps there's some logic in that. I do know that I do not know anyway that a divorce can be less painful to children. There is only pain, or more pain, depending on how the parents handle it. If someone has a car that only runs down hill, then it is only good for a one-way trip living in an area with hills. No matter what, you're forced to deal with it, either fixing it, or walking.

Thank you Shaz and CoolChef. Given how Belle's situation so closely mirrors my own, her questions have been pushing me to put together my thoughts and feelings over the last three years -- which has proven a most beneficial exercise. For that, I owe Belle a debt of gratitude also. Her openness on these boards and thought-provoking questions have been an inspiration and a motivation to get my **** together. Thank you Belle. Keep it up.

Back-seat drivers....

Gee, that was long-winded. Sorry for the brain-dump.

This is a question that has occupied my mind for many a sleepless night. I try not to think about it but since Belle asked so politely… My marriage ended very much like Belle’s, with my wife choosing TWI over me. I’ve had three years to ponder what happened and why. I’m sad to hear the same thing continues to occur to other marriages in TWI. I remember the first few days after she left. I could not understand how she could do it, given the vows made, even salted before TWI’s minister. I was not willing to give up on my vows (I was brought up believing a promise is a promise, no matter what and you do whatever it takes to keep it), and was willing to do marriage counseling, of which she would have nothing to do with. She insisted that our vows included a promise to remain faithful to TWI and that I had violated it. I pulled out the video tape of our marriage ceremony and played the vow section. Nothing about TWI. I suppose she had to have something to justify what she was doing. I don’t know. Of course, there was more going on than just a disagreement over TWI. There are marriages that have survived one spouse leaving with the other staying, even though it puts considerable pressure on the marriage. I can’t speak for what was going on with my wife, but I was considerably sick at the time. I had severe depression, chronic fatigue, and was overall a general mess, although looking at me you would think I was just tired. The depression was what made survival of the marriage next to impossible. Stress made the depression worse, making it extremely difficult to love someone who is also the source of the stress. The opposite occurs. You only want to push back, get it away from you, to get some relief for what is going on inside your head. Would my marriage have survived without me being sick? I don’t know. It’s another one of those questions that keeps me awake at night and I prefer not to think about it. As for the question of keeping vows or breaking them (after those short introductory remarks), I think I have come to some sort of understanding that I can share. What I have found concerning keeping of the vows is inadequate knowledge on how to keep them. Marriage is complicated, involving living closely with someone, making major financial decisions, major decisions that affect children, etc. There are plenty of opportunities for the vows to be tested along the way and some knowledge of how to work through them together would have proved most beneficial. I wholeheartedly reject what TWI taught concerning marriage. The doctrine that the man is the head of the household has done more to destroy marriages than to help them. Women are not subservient to men. One is not better than the other, justifying a greater role. I am ashamed that I ever bought into this doctrine and recalling memories of when I attempted exercise of it makes me feel repugnant. I see marriage as a partnership, for lack of a better word. Two people deciding to go through life together. A woman is better at certain things, a man better at others, but together they are stronger, both helping to complete the other. This is the “two shall become one,” as I see it. I didn’t see it before she left, but when she did, I felt as if a part of me was ripped away. Love is great, especially for a marriage. But without respect for the other, how can you love them? Respect for what the other is really good at, respect for what the other considers important, respect for knowing that the other is a part of you, respect for knowing that the other has given up so much and committed so much to be with you. When the disagreement over TWI hit my marriage, I found it difficult to respect her when she would not listen to my reasons and concerns. I’m sure she lost respect for me when I left and became a “cop-out.” Should we have worked hard, given all we had to keep our vows? Of course. Could we have done it on our own? No way. Once you’ve lost respect for each other, you no longer value what they say. It takes a third party stepping in and pointing out where both have gone wrong and how to get back on track. Unfortunately, the third party that stepped in for us was a pair of lawyers and the probate court (after the jack-foot corpse running the area did nothing but encourage her to leave). So anyway, this is my viewpoint. It probably doesn’t apply to an abusive marriage setup, and quite frankly, that only scares me and I don’t want to go there. As for getting remarried and it’s affect on the original vows? Once divorce occurs, do the original vows mean anything? Personally, I would love to do nothing else but to attempt to keep my original promise. But, I also know, there is absolutely nothing I can do that would help me keep it. If it is impossible to keep a promise, is a person still responsible for it. I don’t think so. If I promise to fly to Chicago on Tuesday, show up at the airport on Tuesday only to find that all flights have been cancelled, am I responsible? Can’t be. I had a very religious cousin who married, had two children, then divorced. Her belief was that unless you can rejoin your original husband, you should remain unmarried. She has spent the last 25 years alone. It would be extremely difficult for anyone to convince me that a God of love and compassion could ever endorse such a thing. Sorry to be so long winded. Kind of happens when you've spent too much time thinking about a particular subject.

The latter is not an option, too much money and power (redundant?) involved. You only would have accelerated your exit. Either way, it's a win-win -- although it would not appear as such while still in.

Given the amount of talent TWI currently posseses in regards to research ability, I would surmise that: - They measure with their middle finger. - They mark with a paint roller. - They cut using a backhoe.

THE doesn't require me to go door-to-door proclaiming THE's greatness. There is no foundational THE class. THE doesn't care if you log in 10 minutes early or not.