Raf

To be clear: The WHEN has already been identified, though only in a general sense, not specific (and the WHEN is inseparable from the WHY). It just wasn't recognized when it was mentioned. Glossed right over it in favor of the wrong answer. Once you identify why/when, you will narrow down the WHO to, at most, three or four people. No one else fits the category of "known to sing but not really known as a singer."

Am I? I was doing so well keeping up, too. * The lead male character wears a hat gifted to the actor by the lead actress. The hat belonged to her late husband. * The only movie in history to win Oscars for a man and his daughter playing a man and his daughter.

I've been asked to clarify the point of this thread. I contend that the only reason I need to is to address the deliberate attempts to derail it from the very first page. But I will back up to add context to the statement made in the opening post. Let me start by saying that for the purpose of this thread, it really doesn't matter what "theopneustos" means. It only matters that it means something to you. If it means nothing to you, then this thread offers you no challenge. That's why I didn't just say "I believe nothing is God-breathed." That's not a statement that challenges people to address how they think about the topic. Yes, it's accurate. May 13, 1986 fell on a Tuesday. That's also accurate, and just as relevant (which is to say, not at all). So, regardless of what I think God-breathed means, and regardless of what you think God-breathed means, let's agree that the word "theopneustos" is, in fact, a word in the Bible that VPW and TWI did not make up, and that it means, literally, "God-breathed," which VPW and TWI did not make up, and that many (most? all?) Christians agree with the statement that the Bible is God-breathed according to scripture. This is not a statement that is peculiar to GSC, TWI, CES, STFI, CFF, or any ministry that can trace itself to a farm in Ohio. If you bother to Google "God-breathed Word," you will find MANY references within the Christian world, only a fraction of which seem to have the remotest thing to do with TWI. All of this is a preface. Most Christians believe the Bible is God-breathed, whatever that means to them (or to you). Along comes Mike. Mike wants us to think PFAL is God-breathed. Nonsense! we say. If PFAL were God-breathed, it would have the characteristics PFAL outlines for the God-breathed Word. It doesn't. It has actual errors and contradictions! Ok, fine, but so does the Bible. Oooooops. Observation: If we use PFAL's defining characteristics of the God-breathed Word to rule itself out as God-breathed, we cannot escape that the Bible does not live up to the same criteria. With me so far? Because so far I have not seen anyone disagree with this. For two decades, Mike has managed to exploit, deliberately or not, the fact that you can't disqualify PFAL from being God-breathed without laying the foundation for the Bible to be disqualified on the same grounds. Wierwille was a womanizer (David, Solomon). He tells fake stories about things that didn't happen (Genesis, Exodus). He claimed God talked to him audibly (Moses).No one can confirm his absurd story of snow on the gas pumps (Jonah). So, to those who believe the Bible is God-breathed, however you define it, how can you argue PFAL is not? My answer is easy: I don't believe EITHER work is God-breathed. Problem solved. But that's not YOUR answer. So what is? My original post anticipates explanations that rule out PFAL as God-breathed and makes a prediction: You cannot rule out PFAL as God-breathed without ruling out the Bible on the same grounds. Much respect for those whose answers implicitly admitted "I'm going on faith and I'm not willing to engage." No problem. Don't. You'll notice I did not argue with you. Maybe go easy on Mike, unless you can tell us all how his leap of faith is so different from yours? Exhale.

I was about to say "Gracie's pregnant." You're up again WW

FYI: I'm not really calling out Josephus for failing to mention Jesus. I would call him out for failing to mention the annual custom of releasing a condemned prisoner on the Passover... IF I had any confidence there ever WAS such a custom. Also calling out the attempts to inject Jesus into the writings of Josephus instead of just accepting the truth you just shared: he just wasn't on Josephus' radar for whatever reason. I'll put an asterisk here... *... for anyone who wants to discuss Josephus' Jesus references further at any point. I'm not going to argue for no reason.

But you're disagreeing with my major premise by pointing out factors that don't address it. It is UNPROVEN, for example, that there was a slaughter of the innocents. It is DISPROVEN that Pilate had a custom of releasing condemned men on the Passover. Yes, that's an argument from silence, but it's silence where one would not expect it if the custom were historically true. In other words, if I told you my house burned down yesterday, and you came by today and saw no trace of a house fire, just a perfectly fine house, you would conclude I was mistaken or lying about my statement. The absence of evidence in this case really is evidence of absence. Pilate's custom falls into that category: it is so outside of his character that the best explanation for the failure to mention it is that it wasn't true. Same with Noah's flood. There is no archaeological or geological record of a global flood, nor is there evidence of a regional flood that would cover mountains or move a boat to Mount Ararat. Any flooding at all? Sure. But nothing like Gen 6-9. Exodus of 2 million Hebrews from Egypt? Yeah, never happened. SIT? Unprovable, not disproven. We discussed that. Personally, I think the absence of evidence there is glaring. But not everyone agrees. Ok. So yes, Josephus does VERIFY some things. Pilate existed. But he verifies things that are not in dispute. Ben Franklin was a character in the John Jakes Kent Family Chronicles. He really existed. But his interactions with Phillip Kent were fictional. They never happened [in this case because Phillip Kent didn't exist]. That John Jakes inserted a historical figure into a fictional story does not make his story into history. Same with the gospels. That Herod existed doesn't mean the slaughter of the innocents happened. That Pilate existed doesn't mean Barabbas existed. Or that Arimathea is a real place. Oldies, Nice catch. I would submit that is an argument similar to "Judas went away choked with grief" or "the fross Christ bore in John is metaphorical, Simon only bore the physical cross." But I'll remove the reference from my repertoire.

Sound thinking until you blew it. Songs performed at the Super Bowl have, more often than not, been performed many times before and since. "Bigger" has not. Independently, Eminem is incorrect.

I obviously agree with the opening post. I'd go a little further and say religion demands acceptance of the disproven. Watch how people twist themselves into knots over something they would dismiss coming from any other religion. The Book of Mormon contains a fictional history of the Americas. Anyone in their right mind would know that disqualifies the Book of Mormon as a reliable source of knowledge of history. But the Bible's nonsense about a global flood (and before you go there, the "regional flood" story is just as nonsensical because no such flood ever happened in that part of the world as described. More on that if you need it), nonsense about Israelite slaves in Egypt and a dramatic story about every family losing its firstborn, a story that makes it into not one single historical account from the country where it happened. You think Exodus happened? LOL. Name the Pharoah. What? The story doesn't even name the villain? Ok, that's easy. Just go to Egyptian historical records for who was Pharoah when the Hebrews were expelled and all the firstborn of all the families including livestock died in a single night and... and what do you mean it never happened? Never? Like, under any Pharoah? Well, that must mean... And then Jesus gets baptized and immediately goes fasting for 40 days and gets tempted by the devil, according to Matthew. And then Jesus gets baptized and immediately goes fasting for 40 days and gets tempted by the devil, according to Mark. And then Jesus gets baptized and immediately goes fasting for 40 days and gets tempted by the devil, according to Luke. And then Jesus gets baptized and three days later is at a wedding in Cana and what fasting and temptation in the wilderness according to John. And then Pilate comes up with a new tradition of releasing a condemned criminal on the Passover. We know this is true because we actually know quite a bit from history about Pilate. For example, he never did any such thing. Oops. I mean, come on, he gives the people a choice between Jesus, the Son of the Father, and a criminal named Jesus Barabbas (which means son of the father)? IT'S A MADE UP STORY! But instead of accepting the obvious, most believers try to shift the burden. Well, you can't prove it didn't happen! Fine. I can't prove that ridiculous and obviously contrived BS story didn't happen. But come on. Pilate never had a custom of releasing prisoners. Sheesh. Lo Shanta away!

That's the key. Figure out WHY, and you will have significantly cut down the possibilities on WHO.

Ok, there once was a song called "Bigger." I want you to tell me who sang it. It was co-written by one of the greatest lyricists currently writing and performing today. He's not the one who sang it. The one who sang it is known to sing, but is not known as a singer. The song itself is seven-and-a-half minutes long and features background performances (including but not limited to vocals) by circus-style acrobats, cheerleaders, transvestites, children, a guy in a Spider-Man costume and former boxing heavyweight champion Mike Tyson. Its lyrics featured a crass (but not vulgar or profane) comment on the sexual history of a music producer who was in the audience at the time. There were two rehearsals and one live performance in front of an audience of, depending on how you count, about 6,000 people, or 7.3 million. It received a one-minute standing ovation. And was never performed again. Never released for purchase. Never got any airplay on the radio. Never charted on Billboard. Yet is still regarded as a landmark of its genre. It's success has not been repeated. Who performed lead vocals on "Bigger"? For extra credit, when? And why didn't it get treated like a hit song? But you win the round just by naming the artist.

do technicalities count? Because technically: Chicago White Sox Boston Red Sox Washington Football Team are the only ones that come to mind.

Not going to wait for confirmation as I am absolutely certain. ... "Where the hell's the power you promised?" "One damn minute... "

I think it's a great video for what it is, and it doesn't pretend to be something else.

That would be my belief. But a lot of energy has been spent across different threads and different decades trying to get one person to abandon the belief that PFAL is God-breathed while simultaneously maintaining that the Bible IS God-breathed. So we're not really addressing my beliefs here. We're addressing the fact that no one is ever going to win the Mike Wars because they are based on a faulty premise: that "God-breathed" is something anyone can define or demonstrate. A number of people got this right, right from the beginning, by declining to engage in the "debate." They acknowledged that they're working from a position of faith and simply declined to engage in a discussion of why one book collection gets to be revered as theopneustos and another is not. And that's fine. It's really the only out. I mean, besides trolling and being an immature idiot about it, but you do you.

It's clear that you do not take this discussion seriously, as is your right. Derailing the thread is not. It ends now.

Your assumption is not correct. I will be as explicit as I can because this keeps coming up. The statement I made in the opening post does not require any particular definition of God-breathed/theopneustos/given by inspiration of God. It simply does not matter how one defines those terms. If you view theopneustos as perfect in every way, then you can rule out PFAL. You can also rule out the Bible. Neither is perfect in every way, and (in my view) neither even claims to be. So far we are on the same page. NOW, eliminate "perfect" as a definition or defining characteristic of theopneustos. Your new definition is "___." And with THAT definition, you rule out PFAL but include the Bible as God-breathed. I contend you can't do it, no matter how you fill in that blank. The determination that something is theopneustos and something else is not is ultimately arbitrary, even capricious. Whatever criteria you use to rule out PFAL as theopneustos can also be used to rule out the Bible, and how you define theopneustos ultimately does not matter. Mike and I do have something in common in this regard: we both believe PFAL and the Bible belong on the same plane when it comes to divine inspiration. But where Mike wants to elevate PFAL to the place where Christians revere or respect the Bible, I contend they are equally NOT inspired by anything supernatural. That's not to say they are of equal quality. That's a different discussion. They are equally not God-breathed.

Michael J. Fox

Does someone want to take him aside, intervention style, and help him stop making a total Balaam's Donkey out of himself?

It was Ally McBeal and The Practice. You're up.

Demoniations? WTF is this guy babbling about? You are making no g-dang sense. You keep getting everything wrong, especially when talking about what i'm trying to say. I take Mike too seripusly? Are you f-ing stoned? See that calendar? Does it say 2003? No, dip. It's 2023. It's been decades since I took Mike remotely seriously. That's part of the point of this thread which you would know if you had the reading comprehension skills of a lemur. Not one person said anything remotely approaching this. Please hire a lawyer and sue every school that gave you a passing grade in reading comprehension. You have a case. You will win. Use the proceeds to find a f'ing real school.

The Great Muppet Caper

it is. David Banner was the next and last one

If you were any closer you would be right.

The song most identified with Billy Joel is, of course, Piano Man, released in Nov. 1973. His last hit was Lullabye, off the River of Dreams album.

Last two before the giveaway: Russell Donavan Tim O'Hara