Raf

Actually, yes, he says that in the class. Emotion aside, it's a ridiculous claim. The thought that a Bible version would not sell if someone came up with a controversial rendering of one particular verse is provably false, as the plethora of available Bible versions proves. In addition, The Way's very own Aramaic Interlinear translates the relevant verses as questions. I think that is proof that not even the most devoted Wierwille fans on earth could back up his claim.

Oh, yes, Larry, I forgot: Please feel free to post your own. But try to keep it objective. Knock out the emotion, lest you be accused of having feelings. :)--> In PFAL, Wierwille wrote that all the women of the kingdom were technically the property of the king. In truth, there is no such technicality in scripture, nor is there such a technicality in Jewish tradition. It is utterly made up.

For the record, too many people get the credit for the above observations. I'll take credit for coming up with number 10 on my own, 12 years ago. Oh, wait, it's 2003. Make that 13 years ago. For others who deserve credit: I'm sorry, I just don't recall. I KNOW Jerry Barrax is one. Chris Geer, John Lynn and too may others got to the Kingdom of God/Heaven observation LONG before I did. Wierwille corrected himself on a couple of them. Anyway, these are collected observations, FYI.

I'm not talking about errors that are subject to interpretation. Whether you believe the dead are alive now, for example, really depends on your worldview and your interpretation of scripture. Whether you believe in "the law of believing" depends on your interpretation of certain words of Christ. But some errors are concrete. They are objective. If I told you 2+2=5, you would be able to say I am wrong, flat out, and that there was no room for misinterpretation of that fact. I can't say, "well, it's just your interpretation that 2+2=4, but you're just not enlightened enough to know that it's really 5." The purpose of this thread is to document actual errors in PFAL, primarily the book, but also the class. Why rehash this stuff? Simple: for those who believe that PFAL is “God-breathed,” it is necessary to point out that God cannot get things wrong, especially when it comes to matters of Biblical interpretation. So, let’s look at some documentable errors in PFAL. Number 1 In PFAL, Wierwille writes that David is called “a man after God’s own heart” only AFTER the events in II Samuel related to Bathsheba and Uriah. In truth, David is called “a man after God’s own heart” in I Samuel, long before he is king, long before he met Bathsheba. Number 2 In PFAL, Wierwille writes that there is no word “lama” in the Aramaic. In truth, there IS such a word in Palestinian Aramaic, the language Jesus spoke. It means “why?” Number 3 In PFAL, Wierwille writes that the word “lama” should probably be replaced with “lmna,” “for this purpose,” which is never used in a question. In truth, “lmna” can be used in a question, something Wierwille acknowledged near the end of his life, and which is acknowledged in TWI’s very own Aramaic Interlinear. Number 4 In PFAL, Wierwille notes the distinction between “thoroughly” and “throughly.” In truth, the latter is an archaic form of the former. They mean precisely the same thing (Wierwille failed to follow his own principle of interpreting words according to their Biblical usage). Number 5 In PFAL, Wierwille writes of the difference between the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven. In truth, the Bible uses these terms interchangeably. There is no difference whatsoever in their usage. Jesus uses them interchangeably. (I debated whether this is a difference in interpretation or a difference in fact. My conclusion is that this is a difference in fact, as it is plain to anyone who cares to look up the parallel usages of the two terms). Number 6 In PFAL, Wierwille says “apistia” is the kind of unbelief held by people who don’t know enough to believe, while “apatheia” is the kind of unbelief held by people who’ve heard enough, but don’t care. In truth, the word “apistia” is used of the disciples after the resurrection (Mark 16:14) and of Israel (Romans 3: 1-3). Neither can be said to have not heard enough to believe. Number 7 In PFAL, Wierwille defines “apostle” as one who brings new light to his generation. It may be old light, but it is new to the generation that hears it. In truth, “apostle” means “sent one.” It does not carry the definition Wierwille applies to it (indeed, such a definition leads one to wonder how the term could apply to more than one person in any given generation, while we KNOW that there were 12 during Jesus’ lifetime, and 13 if we include Jesus himself – the Apostle and High Priest of our confession. Or is it profession? Whatever). Number 8 In PFAL Wierwille writes that “all without distinction” means anyone within a specific category. In truth, basic grammar tells us that all in a certain category means “all WITH a distinction,” the distinction being membership in that category. This error is so fundamentally blatant that Wierwille himself corrected it in Jesus Christ is Not God. Number 9 In PFAL, Wierwille writes that the gospels are written to Israel and/or to the church of the gospels. In truth, the gospels are all written after the resurrection, and they are written to practicing Christians. There was nothing written specifically TO the church of the gospels. Number 10 In PFAL, Wierwille states that in Luke 2, Jesus was taken to the temple for bar-mitzvah at age 12 instead of 13 because he was considered illegitimate. In truth, the passage in Luke 2 has nothing whatsoever to do with bar-mitzvah. The passage states rather clearly that they were celebrating Passover, not Jesus’ bar-mitzvah. In addition, there is no such custom in Judaism (treating illegitimate children differently for the purpose of bar-mitzvah). Wierwille cites “an old piece of literature” as his source for this bizarre claim. Any one of these FACTS should be sufficient to prove that PFAL is not the perfect utterance of God Almighty, but (at best) the flawed work of a flawed man trying to communicate a system for reading and understanding the Bible.

Hmmm. I'll leave this for others to decide: Should I retract my objection to the snow story or not? I have said all along that I do not have a copy of The Way: Living in Love. It has come to my attention that Wierwille's challenge to God was NOT (as I believed) "make it snow," but, rather, "Let me see it snow." If that's the case, then God could have let HIM see it snow, and no one else (hence, a vision). My problem is that a vision does little to verify a discussion with the Almighty, but since we're parsing words here, if one were to give VPW EVERY SINGLE benefit of the doubt, one would have to leave room for the "vision interpretation." What's funny is, why didn't anyone (Mike) mention this before? It's not like I didn't ask. Ok, so this particular derailment is back on track. ******* Oldiesman: You mean, you don't believe what VPW wrote in Christians Should Be Prosperous?!?! You and I gotta hang out and grab a beer one night. ******** Steve: At the very least, Mike holds the PFAL book and Jesus Christ is Not God to be God-breathed. I come to this conclusion because in at least one case where they CLEARLY conflict with each other, Mike refers to the conflict as an "apparent contradiction" that needs to be resolved using the keys Wierwille taught for clearing up such matters in scripture. [This message was edited by Rafael 1969 on January 02, 2003 at 14:16.]

Lifted, I'm just quoting part of your e-mail, for the sake of space. Let's address the timeline of Wierwille's claim, and I'll ask people with a copy of The Way, Living in Love, to verify my facts and correct them if I am wrong. Wierwille claims God spoke to him. He claims it snowed so heavily that he could not see the gas pumps that were so close to him. Then he claims that "approximately one month after" this incident, he starts his radio program. We all know the date of the radio program, right? That's right, Oct. 3, 1942. Do you want to tell me that a freak snowstorm in early September 1942 went unreported? That it sometimes snows in Ohio on the first day of school? Heavy enough that you can't see out your window? Sorry, Wierwille lied. I quote from Carol Van Drie: I simply don't by the suggestion that a September snowstorm would be so localized that only Wierwille would notice it, and that no one would find this storm worthy of mention. Wierwille lied about the snowstorm. Period. And again, he didn't say it was a vision. A vision, we cannot disprove. September snowfall we can. And we have.

I've been reading this and all I can say is that I have nothing to say. Mike, if 27 years of studying PFAL have failed to reveal to you its internal inconsistencies and flat-out inaccuracies, then nothing I can say on this thread or any other will convince you otherwise. You REJECT the Bible and EXALT PFAL. That makes you an idolater, period. You accuse me of being a prosecutor in the court of traditional Christianity, which proves to me you are as illiterate as you are delusional. I pity you. I was away from my computer and could not reply to the snow storm post a kajillion posts ago. I will in due time. I'm just busy at the moment.

You're correct: Aside from the idol you're idolizing, I find no evidence of idolatry in your posts or positions. But you see, that's the point. The idol which you idolize is the written word of VPW, which you equate to the Word of God. You idolize the written word of VPW, which is NOT "the Word of God," and for that, sir, you are an idolater. First off, no one has ever accused me of worshipping Paul. Many people have been accused of exalting the epistles OVER the gospels, but the accusation was NOT that we were worshipping Paul. The accusation was that we were DIMINISHING the gospels and the other writings of scripture. So, if you want to talk about getting your accusations straight, you might want to start there. Of course, if you were to do that, your straw man would have very little relevance to the discussion at hand. I accuse you of holding the writings of VPW on par with the Bible itself, indeed ABOVE par with any version of the Bible we have available to us. I accuse you of exalting the words of VPW over the Word of God itself. Then you admit it. Fine. The FACT that you are wrong about this is evidenced by the fact that NO ONE, not VPW, not LCM, not anyone else who ever knew or worked with VPW, has ever made the same claim. In other words, you are ascribing attributes to VPW's written works that exceed even the wildest egomaniacal rantings of VPW himself. You idolize his words. You worship the creation of a man. That is the textbook definition of idolatry. No, the attack is not on you. It is on your position, which is foolish, unbiblical and ungodly. Anti-tradition. Anti-common-sense. Anti-Biblical. Anti-Christ. Your denials are worth the paper on which they're printed. Think about it.

Oldies, I think what people are trying to say is that if not for TWI-1, God would have found another method to reach you. The problem, of course, is that such a statement is unprovable, unless you go back and change time (which is kind of what makes it unprovable). The statement can only be proven by inference. God is resourceful. I have no trouble believing that if I never encountered TWI, God would have found some other way to reach me with the positive message I heard there. I think that is consistent with God's character and abilities. So in that sense, God is not limited by people or organizations. TWI-1 fell. It no longer exists. So, is God's Word no longer available? Of course it is. God is resourceful. He can reach people, whether or not there's a TWI-1, a VPW, or even (gasp) an RAO! Happy New Year.

And there is your fundamental flaw, Mike. Uniqueness of Wierwille's doctrine (all in one place) is NOT proof that there was a 1942 promise. The fact that he cobbled together an eclectic mix of doctrines does not prove that God spoke to him audibly in 1942. I agree that he taught quite a bit. But I also believe that quite a bit of what he taught was wrong. That would be, to me, a HUGE indicator of the fact that the promise of 1942, if there WAS one, was not of God. Think of all that Wierwille got wrong. 1. The Law of Believing. 2. Tithing. 3. The relevance of the gospels to Christians today. 4. dechomai and lambano (he BUTCHERED those words). 5. Adultery and fornication. Those are not minor points. Those are MAJOR. Ok, so he may have a point on a lot of the things he taught. But if you expect me to think that God made a unique promise to this man, and all you have to prove it is that he collected other people's doctrines and put it together, then I understand why it took you 27 years to believe that stuff. Because if you spent 27 minutes THINKING about it, you would know how utterly absurd it is. And Wierwille had no baloney? Baloney. Well, OF COURSE! You dismiss the blatant dishonesty and sexual depravity that permeated his life and doctrine! That's right, it permeated his DOCTRINE. That's a big deal, man! I don't think there's any danger of that happening. They searched the scriptures to find out whether what Paul said ABOUT CHRIST was true. They did not search the scriptures to find out whether what Paul said about HIMSELF was true. You're asking us to search the scriptures to see if the 1942 promise is true? Puh-lease. An open mind considers evidence. You've already shown yourself to be the one who has discarded evidence specifically because it detracts from your hero-worshipping stance. How DARE you insult the people here at GS, accusing us of not having an open mind to this lunacy? You give people NO CREDIT for having thought these things through over the years. Only you and your 27 years of open mindedness have been honest? How DARE you? Horse hit. As you VERY WELL know, there are plenty of people who are able to separate the good of VPW from the bad, who acknowledge his faults without dismissing absolutely everything he taught. Mike, I want you to read that paragraph to yourself over and over again, especially the last sentence. It applies far more to you than it does to me. Just, trust me on this one, a'ight? Yes it does. What fine balance? They're polar opposites. You have shown yourself to be gullible when it comes to VPW's testimony of himself, and skeptical when it comes to any objective or subjective third person analysis of what anyone else has to say about him. That's not balance. That's Jonestown Kool-Aid. How's this for a higher standard? Study God's Word, learn it, pray to Him for guidance. Rely on Him, His Word and His Spirit/spirit to guide you to a full understanding of Him, through His Son, Jesus Christ. You need help, Mike. Your idolatry cannot stand.

It all goes back to the 1942 promise. Well, here's my nickel. The 1942 promise did not happen. How do I know this? Because VPW cited supporting evidence to prove the promise did happen, and the supporting evidence has been shown to be false. That's why you have to ignore the snow on the gas pumps story, isn't it, Mike? Because the snow on the gas pumps story PROVES the LIE on which you've based your entire brand of Wierwille worship. You see, VPW asked God to make it snow, and VPW said that God made it snow. He did not say it was a vision. He said it snowed. He did not say he asked God to "show him" snow. He said he asked God to MAKE IT snow. It didn't snow. The weather reports from that day in that region prove it did not snow that day. VPW was lying. If he was lying about the snow (and he was), then I have no reason, none, to believe he was telling the truth about the promise. That does not mean EVERYTHING he taught was bunk. But it does mean that the things he taught were of no more value than that of any other Christian teacher. (In fact, I would argue that it places a greater burden on Wierwille's doctrine, as he has already demonstrated a willingness to lie in God's name).

Hey, I was a Geer splinter!

I forget who first said this, but it's so worth repeating here: Everyone is entitled to his own opinion. You are not entitled to your own facts. Wierwille's abuses, lies and indiscretions are facts. You may decide whether they outweigh his preaching and teaching ministry, but you are not entitled to decide whether or not they are facts. They are. Facts.

Actually, let's look at those topics again... "So, here are the topics I deliberately ignore now that I’ve made my decision based on careful consideration of the facts and the truths: sex scandals, plagiarism, weather reports.... the list goes on," The sex scandals: which prove that he had an ulterior motive in his doctrine on abortion and his teachings on sexuality in general. The plagiarism: which calls into question his integrity as a researcher, and his honesty as a presenter of God's Word. The weather reports, which prove his rampant dishonesty when it comes to matters regarding his calling as a man of God. Yeah, once those are dismissed, it's easy to talk about the covenant between VPW and God.

it.......................... ............................ ............................ ............................ ............................ ............................ ............................ ............................ ............................ ............................ .........just............... ............................ ............................ ............................ ............................ ............................ ............................ ............................ ............................ ............................ ............................ .............won't.......... ............................ ............................ ............................ ............................ ............................ ............................ ............................ ............................ ............................ ............................ ............................ ............................ ............................ ............................ ............................ ............................ ............................ ............................ ............................ ............................ ............................ die!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Actually, I simply don't recall if its in the theatrical release. But it's definitely in the extended.

Mike, apparently someone posted your letter quite some time ago.

And I reject your conclusion right back. Um, yes it is. Sorry to hear that. I honestly would not lose a friend over his opinion of VPW. I would lose a friend who continually insisted that I was ignorant, or lacking in relevant information, who nonetheless declined to provide the information he believes would lead me to the same conclusion. Don't patronize us. I'm standing up to it right now, from you. You mean, how many of us told our former branch leader to his face that he was full of it and that we were going to follow God and not men, not even TWI? How many of us looked "our" new branch leader in the eye and told him that TWI was abandoning the very principles on which it claimed to be founded? You know, coming on a message board and saying "I like VPW" isn't exactly my idea of courage. Big WHOOP. Mike, I appreciate your blunt honesty, but your comment above... well, it doesn't apply to me, so I'll shut up. But if you want a nickel's worth of free advice, it was a cheap shot. Sometimes, sometimes, the stream is taking you in the right direction. So listen, what you need to keep in mind is: what is your goal, and how are you going to get there? If that means going against the stream, then go. If it means going with the stream, then go. But if going against the stream means agreeing with you, then I'm dropping my oars in the water right now. Those are the issues that most clearly demonstrate the flawed character of VPW. Like I said in the other thread, if you dismiss those issues in order to evaluate the doctrine, then I'm totally with you. But if you're going to dismiss those issues in order to continue exalting VPW as some uniquely qualified man of God, then I'm not with you. And it's obvious that you're doing the latter. BRING IT ON!!!! [This message was edited by Rafael 1969 on December 27, 2002 at 8:42.]

Is anyone else having a serious case of deja vu? I mean, we've been here before. I am just SURE of it: someone came along and posted Wierwille's last teaching, citing the Living Victoriously comment where Wierwille says "if I knew this was the last time blah blah blah." I am as concerned with Wierwille's last teaching as I am with Oswald Chambers', CS Lewis', etc. In other words, not at all. It's the content of the message that counts, not the gravity placed on it by the messenger. Wierwille's last teaching has some kind of profound importance? Oh, for heaven's sake. Hope you had a good night's sleep, Mike. P.S. "The Joy of Service" was also a chapter in the book "Our Times," edited by Chris Geer and published in 1990.

Wordwolf: Actually, Gandalf explains it to Frodo in the extended version of Fellowship of the Ring, at the Mines of Moria. If you have not seen the extended version, old friend, get thee to a Blockbuster NOW.

The key to any good psych test is in its participants not knowing what the test is about. Since I know what it's about, my answers are tainted by that knowledge.

Zix, the TNG series finale only showed one possible future. The moment Picard came back and told everyone what he knew about the future, that future became only one possibility among many. In fact, we KNOW that future cannot come to pass because in it, Admiral Riker commanded the Enterprise-D, which was destroyed in Generations. I am SUCH a geek! So anyway, once Picard came back and started blabbing about the future, he polluted the timeline, so the future of the characters was no longer "set," so to speak. I know, I know, "this is no time to argue about time. We don't have the time."

Is this some kind of psychological test? If (as I suspect) it is, then Buck's answer is hilarious.

How about a movie called, Star Trek: Enough Already The alpha quadrant is threatened by a seemingly indestructible and undefeatable threat. The Enterprise-E, the only ship in the quadrant, is sent to deal with the threat by talking to it for two hours. The threat, sensing danger, immediately destroys the Enterprise-E, killing everything on board except Data's head, which drifts uncontrollably toward the nearest star. Just when it seems all hope is lost and Data's head is going to melt - it does. Starfleet, which observes the calamity using one of its ubiquitous cameras, sends 371 other ships to deal with the threat. Unfortunately, the 371 ships won't be ready until Tuesday. Faced with all but certain destruction, Starfleet surrenders, and the undefeatable threat destroys Starfleet, along with the final remnants of ILM studios on earth, ensuring that the 745th Star Wars movie will not be made. The movie ends with a close up of the undefeatable threat. A single gold band. One ring to rule them all.

Good LUCK! HAHAHAHAHAHA LUCK LUCK LUCK!!!! Wooohooooo! Good LUCK! May God sustain you through the good times and the bad, and may you always have the courage and the wisdom to recall the love that brought you to this day.