Raf

I'm debating whether or not the thread has actually been derailed. For the past two days, it has certainly been about Mike. At least today he wrote specifically about his approach to resolving actual 2+2=5 errors in PFAL (deny that PFAL could ever be wrong, but don't call it denial, and dodge all questions). As unsatisfied as I am with that answer, it IS an answer. Now, Mike, I'll agree with Mark on this: it's time to either apply your method to the errors we've identified, or stop interrupting the conversation. In other words.... anyone? anyone?

First I'll drop dead of shock. Then, after you've raised me, I will congratulate you on the resolutions. Of course, your viewpoint requires ALL errors to be resolved. So I would tell you that there's still at least 12 prepositions out of place, meaning yourrrr precioussssss PFAL is still not the Words of Gods's. Good art by Garth.

Put up or shut up. Ah, but you forget, my friend, I do not associate PFAL with Craig Martindale or TWI 2. That's an arrogant presumption on your part. (Awful lot of Star Trek quotes I'm throwing around lately. Anyone picking up on them?) For another thing, you ain't got no answers. Mike, I consider your method to be denial. The more you describe your methodology, the more assured I am of my definition. Let's call it a draw. I continue to contend that you have failed to adequately address a single error. You continue to contend that in order to receive the answers I seek, I need to be meek enough to jump through the hoops leading to your telescope. Deal? [This message was edited by Rafael 1969 on January 28, 2003 at 17:06.]

FINALLY! Mike and I are in agreement.

No, we're not trying to get you to re-enter the suspicion stage. We are trying to get you to explain how you got out of it. You've finally provided an answer. Abject denial. That's very nice. I'll take a pass. Look, I won't say that PFAL lacks any value. That's not the point. If you lean on it and it helps you, more power to you, man. But it doesn't have to be the perfect Word of a perfect God in order to have that effect! The FACT that there are ACTUAL ERRORS in PFAL, that those errors are both small and great, should convince you that it fails to meet its own definition of what it means to be God-breathed. So either its definition was wrong (in which case the PFAL book is in error) or it's not God-breathed (in which case PFAL is in error). The third option is that it really is error free. But if you're going to make that case, your answer has to be better than "Join me in my denial. We all float here." That's the bottom line.

Mike, ... Actually, this is addressed to everyone. Did Mike actually say anything in that post? :)--> Hey, seriously, I don't see a single instance in God's Word where Jesus responded to a question by dodging it. Correction: there is one. When he was asked by what authority he said and did the things he said and did, he responded by asking them to explain the authority behind John the Baptist. In other places, however, Jesus clearly and openly answered the question concerning where he got his authority. The "dodge" was a challenge, not an excuse to avoid answering the question.

Mike, I respect your right to dodge these questions. I think your attitude toward the Bible is antithetical to Wierwille's attitude toward it. But you have convinced yourself otherwise and declared your mind closed on the subject. Fine. But don't come back here and have the gall to accuse us of being closed minded. I would consider it hypocrisy and I will call you on it. The procedure you've described can be summed up in one word. Denial. It's your privilege to exercise it freely. You think the errors we see here will evaporate as soon as we change our perspective. Well, you've made it clear that they have not evaporated for you. Rather, you admit you're dodging them. How can you dodge what has evaporated? The errors will still be there whenever you have the Biblical integrity to face them. And yes, I do question your Biblical integrity. Steve, I agree. I believe you have pointed out and fully documented an actual error. The Bible lists four things. Wierwille lists three, and changes the Word to fit his list. That is the exact opposite of what he told us must be done. Nice job.

I had a similar experience based on the Luke 2 discussion above. My fellowship coordinator was leading us through the Home Studies, and we got to the question about Jesus going to Jerusalem to go through bar-mitzvah, and I challenged him on it. Funny thing was, this was taking place AFTER we had all left TWI. Still, it was VERY difficult to get him to agree that The Way was wrong about Jesus going through bar-mitzvah, that the verse in question had nothing to do with bar-mitzvah, and that an unnamed "old piece of literature" was not an acceptable standard for basing our understanding of the Bible. I think a great many people in TWI were always willing to SAY that Wierwille wasn't perfect and that he could make mistakes. But egads, to actually point one out would have caused a riot! From there to here. And Zix, I must say, that was one excellent post. Thank you.

This thread has three basic premises. 1. That there are actual errors (not due to interpretation or "translation," middlement, proofreaders, etc.) in the PFAL book and Wierwille's other writings. 2. That those errors disqualify PFAL from its own definition of what it means to be "God-breathed." 3. That anyone who considers PFAL to BE God-breathed has to either explain the actual errors (ie, make them fit) or abandon PFAL's definition OF God-breathed in order to maintain that position. Most of us would take 1 and 2 as self-evident, and this thread would not be as necessary (although Jerry proved years ago that it could be tons of fun). But for those addressed in the third premise, the challenge could not be more grave. For if you cannot EXPLAIN the actual errors (and I contend you could not even if you tried), then you MUST admit VPW was wrong about "God-breathed" or abandon your position that PFAL IS God-breathed. You may, as Mike did, choose to ignore the challenge. I never did a google search on Bible contradictions, as Mike suggested. Why not? Because I choose not to take the critics up on the challenge. The difference between me and Mike is, I don't go to the other Web sites and tell them how wrong they are while refusing to address ANY of the contradictions they pose. I don't go there and ask them to explain how they approach difficulties in the theory of evolution to entrap them in an inconsistency. If I make the claim that the Bible has no errors or contradictions, then it is my job to address the errors and contradictions that are brought up. If I'm not going to do that (put up), then I will remain off their boards and silent (shut up). I don't go there and tell them they are lousy researchers or unwilling to listen, without giving them any answers they seek. That's rude. And I'm not talking about "yo mama" rude. I'm talking about dishonest-and-disingenuous-debating-designed-to-cause-confusion-while-failing-to-address-the-very-purpose-of-this-discussion rude. Which brings me back to the point: Any discussion that fits into one of the three premises above should be considered on-topic. Identifying actual errors is on-topic. Challenging a posed "actual error" is on-topic. Resolving an error is on-topic. Explaining how you identify, challenge or resolve an error is on-topic. The clever thing Mike tried to do yesterday was establish for US a consistency he demands of himself. That was getting us off-topic, and it explains my harshness yesterday. Calling on us to apply the same principles to PFAL as we apply to the Bible assumes we all have the same principles in how to resolve errors in the Bible. We do not. Some of us try very hard to resolve difficulties in the Bible. Some of us happily accept their existence as evidence that God worked with men. That discussion is fascinating, but it's not the subject of this thread. If we were to engage in that discussion, then the thread would simply be derailed. Now, if Mike wants to attempt to re-define Wierwille's definition of God-breathed, I'm all ears. But I think we're all well aware that Wierwille did not allow for a view of the Word of God that allowed it to contradict itself. What galls me about Mike, and I've said this repeatedly, is that he comes onto these threads declaring to all the world that he will NOT consider any viewpoint that shakes him from the belief that PFAL is God-breathed, then considers US "unfit researchers" who "don't WANT to see it fit." In other words, the man who has declared his mind closed for business accuses us of having closed minds. That's hypocrisy, and I'm tired of arguing with it. On the other hand, you've got to appreciate a thread that brings back Karl Kahler AND Jerry Barrax.

Steve: Regarding my citation of the scriptures being profitable for doctrine, reproof and correction (along with my decision to leave out "instruction in righteousness") I must inform you that my decision was deliberate. I left out "instruction in righteousness precisely because of how Wierwille interpreted that verse. In order for a debate to have meaning, the debaters must agree to certain premises. Mike's premises are easy to discern. They simply parrot Wierwille's written works. So in order for a debate to have meaning, the terms must be set by Wierwille. My contention all along has been that following that standard will prove that Wierwille's written works do not fit his very own definition of what it means to be God-breathed. So effective was this approach that Mike is pretending, either to himself or to us (or both) that he may not necessarily agree with Wierwille's definition of "God-breathed." A lie? A choice. So, I agree with you that Wierwille was in error when he tried to say that "instruction in righteousness" was nothing more than a summary of "doctrine, reproof and correction." But I would put that squarely under error of interpretation. Maybe someday I will be convinced that it is an actual error. If you'd care to make a more detailed argument, I'm all ears. Oakspear: Yeah, I know, sorry. The potential was always there for this to become a "Mike Wars" thread. That it happened should surprise no one. I saw Mike setting a trap in his questions to Jerry, and I knew that if Jerry answered, the result would be a huge thread derailment. Troubledwine's posts kept everything on track. Jerry: Your posts are stellar. I have a minor quibble. I'm almost certain we've passed 15 by now. :P--> The Living Epistles Society

You almost had me going there. The only reason you don't agree with Wierwille on his definition of "God-breathed" is that you haven't finished rationalizing it to yourself yet. The bottom line remains is that if he was right about the meaning of God breathed, then PFAL FAILS to meet that standard. Period. You've dodged some. You've ignored others. You've addressed none. I agree. You don't have to. But if you're going to keep coming onto this thread to tell me how wrong I am, the least I expect is the courtesy of a correction. The Word is profitable for doctrine, reproof and correction. You have reproved, but offered no correction, Do your Biblical duty or shut up. I'd settle for one. But you see, you accuse me of disrespecting PFAL. I do not. I respect PFAL for what it is. It is YOU who disrespects PFAL by dressing it in a quality Wierwille never intended for it. You have made it yourrrrrr preciousssss. I expect you to show me the answers to my questions, not to tell me the answers exist and leave me as an agent of Satan. More on that in a second... And there you are wrong, sir. We repeatedly ask you to show us how it fits, you DENY us the information and have the unmitigated GALL to accuse us of not wanting it? How DARE you? You owe ME an apology, not to mention many other people who have been so danged patiently waiting for you to provide answers. It is YOU, sir, who have declared an outright refusal to listen to any opposing point of view. Don't you DARE try to accuse us of the same when we have been waiting for you to answer any of these questions. If you don't want to answer them, fine, that's your privilege. But to come here and accuse us of not wanting the answers is an insult, and I will not stand for it. I expect an apology. And they all left you as soon as you said that, right? Unfit, my butt. Address ONE ERROR. Put up or shut up, Mike. And if you're going to shut up, I won't hold it against you. It's your right. But that which thou doest, do quickly. I never accused you of being afraid. No one with that much unmitigated gall can have such fear. You used an AWFUL lot of words to tell us you'd be dodging our questions. Fine, it is your right. I wholeheartedly agree. But I want you to know something: I think you're an unfit researcher, and I'm going to tell all my friends to ignore your posts. Yeah, real mature there, Meek Master Mike.

I don't know if Jerry's views have changed in the last two years, but I can sum up his statements from way back when. The conflicting statements in Galatians and James led him to believe first that James had no place in the canon of scripture, and later, that James has as much right to be in the canon as Galatians. Ultimately, he allowed that the Bible CAN contradict itself. 1. This leads to an important question: Can the Bible contradict itself and still be the Word of God? Some would say yes. Others would say no. I have no doubt whatsoever that Wierwille would say no. Therefore, since this thread addresses the view that Wierwille's works are God-breathed, we are bound in this discussion by Wierwille's definition of God-breathed. If he was wrong about that, then we have to agree that his works are NOT on par with the Bible according to his own definition. That's why I was trying to block your question to Jerry. It would have led to a derailment of the thread on a substantive issue deserving of its own thread. We've had some frivolous derailments before, but they were frivolous, and it was relatively easy to get back on topic. It would be VERY difficult to get back on topic once the issue of Bible contradictions became the subject of discussion. That's why I repeatedly insisted that if you want to discuss it, start another thread. According to Wierwille, God-breathed means no errors or contradictions. Therefore, for his own work to be considered God-breathed, it would have to meet his own standard for it. If he was wrong about that, he could be wrong about anything.

Troubledwine: You were not interrupting. Your comments are actually more on topic than mine. Mike and I are discussing how to approach the errors identified on this thread. But you're discussing an actual error. So there was no need to apologize for "interrupting" the discussion by returning to the main thread topic. That said, you made some good observations. Wierwille's insistence that the body was formed, the soul was made and the spirit was created just crumbles on close examination, doesn't it? The bible says the spirit was formed, the spirit was made, and the spirit was created (actually, does it ever say the spirit was created)? I thik Wierwille's definition of "made" is an actual error too, especially as he distinguished it from "create." Spirit existed before God placed it in Adam. How do we know this? Because God is Spirit. So are the angels. SO there was a substance existing of which the thing made consists, which is Wierwille's definition for "made." Wierwille's definition of "made" is so convoluted that I don't know that it can be nailed down long enough to call it an actual error. Who was it that used the analogy? "It's like nailing Jello to a wall." Further, remember how Wierwille said "formed, made and created" CANNOT be synonymous, or words have no meaning? He said the same of "body, soul and spirit." God uses precise terms to mean precise things, and they cnnot be synonymous, period. I think a strong case can be made that, Biblically, made and created are synonymous. Meanwhile, he has no problem saying "the promise of the father" = "power from on high" = "baptized with the Holy Ghost." Had they all occurred in one verse, Wierwille would have had conniptions and tried to explain how they couldn't be the same, or language would be useless as a form of communication! My, he did exaggerate, didn't he?

Since you hold PFAL to be "God-breathed," I would expect nothing less of you. We presume you and Wierwille agree on the meaning of God-breathed. However, you do not have the right to expect us to do the same, as we do not agree with each other on the definition of "God-breathed." The PFAL book we have is not the original. The original actually contained more errors. The most recently published one as of the time of VPW's death still contains errors, which you still have not addressed. I presume for the sake of this discussion that it is only the most recently edited version of Wierwille's book, circa 1982, that you would consider "God-breathed." Correct me if I am mistaken. That is PRECISELY why I deliberately sought to free this list of errors of interpretation. The errors we have listed are all actual errors that cannot be attributed to interpretation OR to your so-called "middlemen." My problem with your approach is that you still fail to show how it resolves even ONE of the actual errors we posted. The problem is not in your approach, but in the underlying premise. In the case of PFAL, the error is in the actual writing, intent and doctrine of the writer. Its author is not God, but a man who made errors. It doesn't disqualify EVERYTHING he wrote, but it disqualifies that which he got wrong. The bottom line is that you refuse to believe Wierwille ever got anything wrong in print (in the PFAL book and collaterals). THAT PREMISE IS FALSE. That is our basic disagreement. You're right. It's highly unlikely that we're going to see enough proofreader errors to cause major problems in PFAL. Of the actual errors we've listed, which you've still failed to address, NOT ONE can be attributed to a proofreader error. And I contend that not one can be attributed to an error of interpretation (okay, maybe one or two). But in order for your position to hold, ALL THE ACTUAL ERRORS WE'VE POSTED must be attributable to interpretation. The vast majority are not. If you're betting your life on these, remind me not to stand too close to you. :)--> That's two points. But I'll let that pass. I agree with both statements and I agree that they embody, perhaps, PFAL's most lasting value (for me, anyway). Again, I agree. The errors in PFAL are inherent to the text. They did not need to creep in. The author put them there on purpose, not realizing he was wrong. Again, that's two statements, not one. The first is defensible. The second, reprehensible. You cannot understand PFAL without the Bible. But you sure can understand the Bible without PFAL. We could argue this for years, but you are so entrenched in your idolatry on that subject that you've already repeatedly declared a lack of willingness to listen to any alternative viewpoint. So I'll save my breath for that inflatable date I've got stashed next to my pirate copy of Christian Family and Sex Sex Sex. You said that already. I have yet to see you employ your techniques to ANY of the actual errors on this thread (save for a pathetic attempt to explain the Nathan record). I'm starting to wonder if you were being honest when you spoke of monitoring these message boards ever since Waydale. If you had, you would know that Jerry and I had a very long and protracted debate about this very subject. The reconciliation of James and Galatians is a fascinating project. I find it most enjoyable. It should take you more than 20 years. I know it will take me at least as long. But it has nothing to do with the subject of this thread. If you decide to start another thread on the subject, I know there are plenty of people who would be happy to share their observations with you. Fascinating, fascinating subject.

Oh my God! A substantive post! I should shut up and declare victory right now, just for getting a substantive post out of the guy. Of course, it did not address a single actual error in PFAL, nor did it address the premise that in order for PFAL to be God-breathed, it has to meet its own definition of "God-breathed," but shoot, we actually got some substance out of Mike! Yeeeeeehaw!

Contact me by e-mail and I will be happy to give you my home address, Mike. I do have a copy of all Wierwille's books. I just didn't have them at work with me one day when I posted. Someone must have been confused when I wrote that, but I DO have that book, and all the others.

You got "roped into" NOTHING. In calling PFAL God-breathed, which you have, you submit yourself to its definition of "God-breathed." If you do not accept PFAL's definition of God-breathed, then you can allow for the existence of actual errors in PFAL without demanding of it the perfection it demands of God's Word. I would find that viewpoint silly, but then, some would find my own viewpoints silly. Food fight. But you haven't done that. You deny that these errors are "actual" by consistently referring to them as "apparent." As long as you continue to do that, the purpose of the thread remains self-evident. Are you trying to say that Wierwille was WRONG when he wrote that one preposition out of place would cause your Bible to crumble to pieces? If you will agree that there might be something in PFAL that is wrong, a flat out actual error, then there's no need to continue the discussion. Whether you intended to or not, you just called me a tool of the adversary. Not that I'm offended, mind you. I think you're an idolater. Food fight. On the contrary, you DO mind talking about definitions and proofs, as evidenced by your failure and refusal to do so. You say you have exhausted the benefits of doing so, but in my opinion, the only thing you have done is abandoned God's Word for idolatry, for a position that is so unstable that a fair conversation is impossible, as you are constantly shifting the terms of the discussion. Using many many words, you say very very little. I just hope that enough people can see the foolishness of exalting the flawed works of a flawed man over the Bible. If you can convince a few sycophantic idolaters of your position, so be it. But it's no guarantee for truth, as LCM found out.

Mike wrote: If you don't think you're being rude, don't defend it. I don't mind you placing controversial ideas on the table. I DO mind your repeated method of coming in, claiming to have an answer or approach, refusing to share it, and then claiming to have no time to post the information you've spent the last five, six, 27 or 28 years gathering. Address a (supposed) actual error and let's discuss it (you seem to be on track with that in your "private interpretation" post). If you want to attack the integrity of the Bible remnants, start another thread. I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to engage you in that discussion. But if you want to discuss how to address what you laughably call "apparent" errors in PFAL, then I'm all ears.

I have not seen the article. Could you summarize its relevant points?

Mike, In this, I wholeheartedly agree. When we come to a discrepancy in the Bible, we deal with it using certain methods, procedures and principles. Here's the problem, and precisely the derailment I am attempting to avoid: Your premise is and has been that PFAL is God-breathed. In order for that premise to be true, PFAL must adhere to its own definition of what it means to be God-breathed. This thread has shown, repeatedly, that PFAL does not meet that standard. We have shown it with example after example after example. Now, how do you intend to address those examples? So far, you have done so by no means except for evasion, obfuscation, "linguistic legerdemain" and shifting the terms of the discussion in order to place the Bible under the scrutiny we are placing PFAL. That's a derailment and I'll tell you why. We can all agree that in order for PFAL to be God-breathed, it has to at the very least meet its own definition of what it is to be God-breathed, right? Now, in order for us to agree that the Bible meets Wierwille's standard for what it means to be God-breathed, we must conclude that the Bible has no errors or contradictions. The problem is, not everyone on this thread can or will agree with Wierwille's standard. HE must agree with himself. But we don't have to agree with him. There is honest disagreement about what the term "God-breathed" means. But Wierwille's definition is plain and leaves no room for even ONE PREPOSITION to be out of place. Does his own written work meet that standard? Now, if Jerry (with his definition of God-breathed) begins to answer your question about Bible contradictions (I'll save you the suspense: he has no problem with their existence), and Goey (with a similar definition) and Zixar (with a third definition) and I (with a fourth) all start answering your question, in no time flat we will have a rambling thread that has absolutely nothing to do with the actual errors in PFAL. It will be an endless debate about what it means for a scripture to be "given by inspiration of God." This is the derailment I am trying to prevent. You're making a huge presumption when you imply that the people on this thread (or at the Cafe) agree that the Bible is without errors or contradictions. You are holding us to a standard set by PFAL, but many of us reject PFAL's authority to set that standard. YOU, on the other hand, hold PFAL to be "God-breathed" and even MORE reliable than the Bible "remnants," as you disrespectfully refer to the book Wierwille publicly revered. So, adopting YOUR logic, I may fairly conclude that the Bible will have errors and discrepancies attributable to the "fact" that the scriptures are but remnants of "the Word of God." YOU, on the other hand, are the one who has "painted yourself into a corner." For while you have provided us with your very own answer as to why the Bible may contradict itself from time to time, you have given NO REASON why PFAL might do the same. And we're not talking about typos or proofreaders' mistakes. We're talking about demanding, of God's most recent and undefiled revelation, that it meet its own standards for being "God-breathed." You keep trying to get away from that, when it is the sole underlying issue of this thread. You want to come here and accuse us of inconsistency (aka, painting ourselves into a corner), when we never claimed the "consistency" mantle for ourselves! It is a classic straw man argument. Accuse us of setting a standard, then chastise us for not meeting it. The only problem is, we never set any such standard! Wierwille, on the other hand, set a standard for what it means to be "God-breathed." Part of that standard was that there could be no errors or contradictions. NOT ONE PREPOSITION can be out of place in PFAL or any of the collateral books in order for your premise to hold. That is the standard set in PFAL itself. The integrity of the Bible is a separate issue, worthy of discussion, but not the point of this thread. What the people in this thread THINK of the Bible, and how to approach its discrepancies, is a separate issue, worthy of discussion, but not the point of this thread. This thread is about "actual errors" in PFAL. If YOU continue to contend that PFAL is "the God-breathed Word," then the burden is on YOU to explain its the errors and contradictions. You have failed to address even one. Your continued efforts to put the Bible on trial notwithstanding, you have FAILED to derail this thread. [This message was edited by Rafael 1969 on January 27, 2003 at 13:12.]

Mike, start a thread about how to handle apparent Bible contradictions. Have at it. This thread is about actual errors in PFAL and your derailment is intentional. And rude.

Thanks, tw. Nice work. I want to highlight one of Jerry's observations because it's tucked into the whole "image" discussion when, in fact, it is its very own actual error. Wierwille writes that the image of God, namely spirit, that was "created" in Adam. The Bible uses the word "made," which is contrary to Wierwille's precise definitions. According to Wierwille, the body was formed, the soul was made and the spirit was created. The Bible says very clearly that man was "made" in the image of God. Since Wierwille equates the "image of God" with "spirit," his insistence that the spirit was "created" is an actual error.

Ok, first Hope: The discussion on Nathan is intended to point out the principle of "correction." So go to the PFAL book and look for the part where Wierwille discusses doctrine, reproof and correction. You'll find your quote on p. 86. (Just thought I'd retrace my steps, in case you have to look for it again someday). Now, Zix: PFAL p. 78 So we see, first, that Wierwille made both statements. Zixar was not confused. Neither was Jerry. The statement I just quoted is so absurd I cannot believe I missed it for the original list. God has to give us spirit to communicate with us because God is Spirit and cannot communicate to our minds or brains. Well, not to be a pain in the butt about it, but HOW CAN OUR SPIRIT COMMUNICATE WITH OUR BRAINS IF GOD ALMIGHTY CANNOT? Duhhhhhh. Terrific actual error.

Jesus Christ is Not God, p. 130 Zixar has inadvertently pointed out another actual error. For you see, according to this statement, God is MANNA! :D--> The other point Zix raises requires a bit of digging. I'll get to it today.

I'm going to jump in and ask Jerry not to answer Mike's question (he may, of course, choose to ignore my request). Mike, this thread is about actual errors in PFAL and Wierwille's books, which you claim to be God-breathed and therefore perfect. You have FAILED to address a single alleged "actual error," choosing repeatedly to attack the integrity of the Bible rather than defend the integrity of youuurrrrrr preciousssss PFAL. I am going to say this again: If you want to start a thread about actual errors in the Bible, be my guest. But STOP trying to derail this thread. It's rude.