Raf

What is more important, the identity of the person who carried the cross, or the identity of the person nailed to it? When you see a cross on a building, what do you think? When you see a cross removed from a building, what effect does it have? Sometimes TWI got it right when it comes to preaching the cross. And sometimes they got it dead wrong. There's no sin in symbolism, despite the lies of TWI. There's no sin in seeing a cross and thinking, "Oh yeah, the sacrifice. I remember." Sometimes TWI got it right. Sometimes TWI got it wrong.

blank [This message was edited by Rafael 1969 on November 28, 2003 at 18:32.]

You're so sly. But so am I. Manhunter (Later used in Red Dragon. Both movies are based on the same book).

I think TWI sent mixed signals on this. Wierwille's chapter doesn't denigrate the cross. Nor does the inclusion of "The Old Rugged Cross" in the songbook. But in practice, they removed crosses from buildings (which makes one wonder why they left it in the songbook) and boy o boy did they mock the symbol. I think Mel Gibson's movie will be interesting. I'm looking forward to it too.

Actually, I'm going through the old blue songbook and the brown one. "Banner of the Cross" appears in the blue songbook, but not in the brown one. I don't know when that particular lyric change (from "Banner of the Cross" to "Banner of the Lord") took place. Song 89 in the brown songbook is "The Old Rugged Cross." WordWolf: The phenomenon you describe appears to be something we observed after leaving TWI. It might be a Geer phenomenon. The lyric changes may have taken place before we left, and got incorporated into our songbooks. But that's speculating.

Marching on! Marching on! For Christ count everything but loss! And to crown him King, we'll shout and sing Beneath the banner of the... lord. ?

Vickles, You're very much mistaken. Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus Christ was the first being created by God, and that he abandoned his heavenly position to become the earthly Messiah.

You have a point, Oldiesman. But you're also missing one. True, TWI's writings showed respect for the cross. Thank you for pointing that out. Their practice on the other hand, was another thing entirely. Do you want a list of the number of times the cross is ridiculed in TWI tapes and live teachings? I'm sure there's no shortage. How about this: how about a list of TWI sites and locations that have a cross on them? Oh, you mean there ARE none? Oh, I see. It's true that evil people can wear a cross. It's also a distraction from the point. I'll just agree to disagree with you on this one. But more than anything else, Happy Thanksgiving. Raf

Oldiesman, You continuously draw a distinction between the cross of Christ and the cross on which Christ was crucified. The Bible draws no such distinction. To dismiss the opposing point of view as "pure folly" and even "evil surmisings" probably makes it easier for you to dismiss what people are saying, but it's incorrect and dishonest. TWI ridiculed the cross. TWI ridiculed people who looked at the cross as a symbol of the sacrifice of Christ. This is not thinking "evil," this is recognizing history.

Oldiesman, They ridiculed the cross as a symbol. They never ridiculed the cross as the method of Christ's death. Let's look at it from another direction: when you see a cross on a building, what do you think? a. There are Christians in that building. Look, ma, a church! b. Look at those pagans worshiping the sun-god. If they were smart they'd take Power For Abundant Living and tear that thing down! c. Christ died on one of those things. For me. Thank you for the reminder. When I see a cross today, I think A and C. During TWI, I thought B. TWI taught B. They encouraged B. They patted you on the back and congratulated you on your superior knowledge for B. Tell me, which attitude glorifies Christ and gives honor to his sacrifice? You're adding a word and drawing a distinction where the Bible does not. TWI did not ridicule the cross of Christ, but they ridiculed the cross, "period." They didn't ridicule the sacrifice of Christ, but they ridiculed those who wear a cross as a reminder of their Lord and Savior's sacrifice. No, they did not ricidule the cross "of Christ." They just ridiculed the cross. Think about it.

Good point, Oldiesman. Unfortunately, TWI proceeded to take that teaching and conclude "The cross of Christ wasn't the wooden cross." Then they mocked people who had reverence for what was accomplished on the wooden cross, as if people wear the cross to glorify the manner of Christ's death (as opposed to the significance of it). Ex10 has a very good point. I don't think VPW intended to reject the message of the cross. But when TWI ridiculed the cross as a phallic symbol, the result was just the same. Fascinating discussion.

Hiccup.

I wonder if we'll ever be put into songs or tales. The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers

It's just a flesh wound. Monty Python and the Holy Grail Do you like apples? Well I got her number. How do you like them apples? Good Will Hunting This has really been your year, Miss Duarte. Tell us where you go from here, Miss Duarte. Which are the roles that you yearn to play? Whom did you sleep - dine with yesterday? Evita Seven days. The Ring A census taker tried to interview me once. I ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti. The Silence of the Lambs I'd give real money if he'd shut up. Star trek VI: The Undiscovered Country

To paraphrase a great movie reviewer: This movie is a pooptacular poopfest of poopy poop. I didn't see it. Don't wanna. :)-->

What's a yout? Oh, you were serious about that?

Oh, I can't forget this one... Myyyy preciousssssss... Lord of the Rings

Spared no expense. Jurassic Park Is this a homicide or a bad B-movie? Night of the Creeps I have a bad feeling about this. Spoken at least once in every Star Wars movie Thank you. Five dollars. I think I'll go to the movies. By myself. Trading Places And these are pork bellies, used to make bacon, which may be found in a bacon, lettuce and tomato sandwich. Trading Places "What about the women?" "Get your own women!" Jason Robards negotiating hostage releases with Bill Murray in Quick Change That is one nutty hospital. Tootsie

Happy Birthday to the Harpsichord! It's not, but I figured since it's the birthday forum... Happy Anniversary to the Bass and the Cello. Hundreds of years together, and still Junior High School students can't tell you apart!

Scruffy. A sentimental replica of a planet long since vanished. No style at all. I expect better manners from my guests, Zod. and who can ever forget... General, would you care to step outside?

Oh the Superman movies have some great lines. "You're going to end up fighting every politician in the country!" "How'd you get here so fast?" "I ran." All those things I can do. All those powers. And I couldn't even save him. It is forbidden for you to interfere with human history. You've got me? Who's got you? A friend. Bad vibrations? First round's on me, let me get my hat. "Mommy! Mommy! The cat was stuck in a tree. A man swooped out of the sky and gave her to me." "Haven't I told you to stop telling lies?" (WHACK!) Fly. Don't look. Just, fly. We've got, something. I'm not saying what it is. Just, trust me. A good reporter doesn't get great stories, Jimmy. A good reporter makes them great. It's your weight and my IQ. It's amazing to me that that brain can generate enough power to keep his legs moving. Miss TessmaCHERRRRRR!!!!! Come, son of Jor-El. KNEEEEL before Zod! The whole planet Hoo-ston? "You are master of all you survey." "And so I was yesterday. And the day before." "Ah, yet he is but one, while you are three." "UNGH!" "Or four if you count him twice." "Why do you say these things to me, when you know I will kill you for it?" "Me? Lex Luthor? The greatest criminal mind of our time?" Orange juice, yes, yes, I know, freshly squeezed. For a minute there you almost had me convinced. For a minute.

"Your mother puts license plates in your underwear? How do you sit?" Real Genius "Nuuude women. Cloooowns welcome." Quick Change "I was the next man." Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade

"A craptacular crapfest of crappy crap" is now a common phrase at the Sun-Sentinel. Explanations of the term are no longer necessary. It is officially a common idiom.

Back when I took my break from the cafe in April, a major reason was that I became a caretaker for an autistic 7-year-old named Samuel (aka, my Little Bug). Samuel loved to push my buttons (that is, the buttons on my VCR. It seems watching a video from beginning to end is so passe). Like many autistics, he thrives on routine and is disturbed when that routine is thrown off. Like many children, his desire for routine does not apply to the need to get to school every morning. (No school! No school!). Different autistics have different levels of awareness of the world around them. Samuel was capable of conversation, but not a normal one. When he answered a question, it was hard to tell whether he was truly replying to you or just responding according to what he thought he was supposed to say. When I used to ask, "Who's my Little Bug?" he would respond "Loves me." I have no idea how my question was processed by his brain. Ultimately he learned to answer "I am!" And he was. He's with his mom now, in Utah. And I still cry when I think of him.

What do you want to know?