Raf

Oldiesman, As an appreciator of PFAL, you should know better than to post "so-and-so says that's what it means" and expect that to carry any weight. Plenty of rabbis and Christian teachers interpret that verse precisely the opposite of the way Petasnik does. What does it get you? Nothing. Men's opinion. I reject his opinion. It is inconsistent with the way the word is used in multiple other instances. His opinion is interesting, but in and of itself is devoid of authority. Mo, sorry for your loss. God Bless You (He loves you and always has).

Tom, It's really him. Paw wouldn't allow someone to just sign up with that identity.

Blaughck This is why I don't go by the name "ralph." Ralph is a verb!

I think tone is a hard thing to capture on a message board. I couldn't tell if your apology was "sincere" or not, if it was "heartfelt" or not. It's really not my call to make. I can tell you what it felt like as a reader: I think your earlier comment/admission was much easier to be entreated than the apology itself. Again, I'm not judging your heart; just the way words appear on a web page, which is a far more difficult thing to do. Words on a web page don't always convey the heart of the speaker. If you really are sorry you said what you did, then you've done your part, IMO. I don't know if Imbus will accept your apology or not. My guess is that before anyone will accept an apology, they want to know that it was sincere and heartfelt. And that's a real hard thing to convey.

Oh, let's see... Dylan McDermott on The Practice. Camryn Manheim on The Practice. The guy who plays Eugene on The Practice. The guy who plays Jimmy the Grunt on The Practice. The lead actor on Smallville The entire cast of Enterprise. Patricia Heaton and that tall goofy guy on Everybody Loves Raymond.

Like pulling healthy teeth from an Osmond, with a pair of chopsticks.

I'll take the "nagging" jab. So, if your words were condescending and unnecessary, then do you see now why you might owe...

True. No one said the PFAL teaching was an explicit endorsement of adultery. The PFAL teaching failed to adequately condemn the adultery. That's been said. There was an absence of sound teaching on matters of sex, particularly adultery, in TWI. That's been said. Someone got fired just for saying adultery was wrong in every administration. That's been said. People TWISTED the Bible and the PFAL passage in question in order to justify their misbehavior and adultery. That's been said. But Oldiesman figures if he didn't twist the teaching, then no one did. That's a foolish position to take, given the weight of the evidence against it.

Sure, you acknowledge that there was abuse going on. You just refuse to acknowledge any actual incidents of abuse. Let someone talk about the abuse that was going on, on a personal level, and all you can do is remind that person what a sinner she is. Well done.

No apology will be forthcoming, Oldiesman.

Two things, Accuser II: 1. Reminding Imbus that it was adultery was callous and unnecessary, given that she already expressed that this was entirely wrong and inappropriate behavior. There was no need for you to come in and ASK her if she recognized this was adultery. Your question was demeaning, condemnatory and unnecessary and she deserves an apology. 2. On numerous occasions you have stated that she refuses to accept responsibility for her actions. She has accepted responsibility for her actions. You accused her of this, falsely. You owe her an apology. And let me add a third thing: you're being a stubborn fool, insisting that she said what she didn't say, insisting that she didn't acknowledge what she did, and continuing to act as if you have the moral high ground, just like the Pharisees who dragged the woman caught in adultery before the Lord. Did Jesus kneel down to her and say, "Now, woman, you do recognize that what you did was adultery, don't you?" No, he did not do that. And do you know why? He assumed she already knew that. You could have assumed that Imbus already knew that. Instead you were a condescending jerk.

So now you're blaming people's hatred of VPW for your callous, heartless, unnecessary and inappropriate condemnatioon of Imbus? Horsehockey. No one said Imbus didn't sin. Imbus didn't say Imbus didn't sin. YOU had nothing better to do than call her a sinner, deflecting from the whole point of the thread. Gimme an A! Gimme a P! Gimme an OLOGIZE! What does it SPELL?

Oldiesman, I want you to read this very very carefully. No one said what Imbus did was not sin - least of all Imbus. No one needed your help identifying sin. You were out of line. Apologize already.

One Sunday morning, the pastor noticed little Alex was staring up at the large plaque that hung in the foyer of the church. It was covered with names, and small American flags were mounted on either side of it. The seven year old had been staring at the plaque for some time, so the pastor walked up, stood beside the little boy, and said quietly, "Good morning, Alex." "Good morning, Pastor," replied the young man, still focused on the plaque. "Pastor, what is this?" "Well, son, it's a memorial to all the young men and women who died in the service." Soberly, they stood together, staring at the large plaque. Little Alex's voice was barely audible, trembling with fear, when he asked, "Which service; the 9:45 or the 11:15?"

Still blaming the girl, Oldiesman? Why not take responsibility for your actions? Why don't you stop blaming the girl? This is about YOU after all. You're the fornicator who won't accept responsibility for your actions. Own up and accept some responsibility! (You know, this is stupid, right? You just said you accepted responsibility, but I'm harping on you blaming the girl. Not fair, is it, when I only read part of what you say and ignore the rest. Just like it's not fair that you ignore Imbus' remorse and instead focus in on your usurped role as her Accuser.)

Well, oldiesman, do you think the "every woman in the kingdom belonged to the king" scenario was actually abused by people in TWI, or do you think the twisting of that story is an invention of the gscafe?

I like how you "lay" the blame on the corps girl who seduced you rather than take responsibility for your actions. You do see how you're a fornicator, don't you, Oldiemsan? (I'm ignoring the part where you took responsibility for it, just like you ignored the part where Imbus took responsibility for her actions).

Holy cow, is it hard work coming up with stuff this stupid? Oldiesman, WE'RE NOT THE ONES TWISTING THE PHRASE! Others did it, and used it to justify adultery! And because TWI HAD NO SOUND TEACHING on adultery, this misinterpretation was able to flourish among those who were abusing it... PLUS!!!! it was WRONG to begin with! Not every woman in the kingdom belonged to the king. David had no right to take Bathsheba. David's sin was NOT just having Uriah killed. It was adultery. How do we know this? BECAUSE ALL OF NATHAN'S REPROOF was about adultery, and none of it was about murder. This fact is conveniently left out. So, a wrong doctrine in PFAL got twisted into wrong practice which led good people who wanted to please God to question whether they really understood adultery after all... And you bury your head in the sand and pretend that none of this happened, despite the massive evidence to the contrary, and when one of your sisters makes a pained admission of her own participation in this, the best you can do is stitch an A on her chest and call it a day. Apologize already.

"The man committed adultery as well." Well, isn't that nice of you to say? It was SO not the point. Minion of Lucifer? No, usurper of his role in a Christian's life. If he needs any help accusing Christians and making them feel guilty of their past sins, I think he knows who to call. Oldiesman, if you don't think Way doctrine and practice implicitly condoned adultery and twisted PFAL and the Bible to do it, then you've got your head in the sand.

Besides, you left out: "The world's only living heart donor." "Compassion free zone." "Pharisee." You are utterly heartless. If you had half the integrity of imbus, you would apologize to her and drop this stubborn Pharisee act.

Oldiesman, get this through your impenetrable skull, will you: SHE ACCEPTED RESPONSIBILITY FOR WHAT SHE DID. Tracing the reasons for it does NOT abandon personal responsibility. She is not blaming PFAL. She is stating that PFAL had wrong doctrine which was further twisted by self-serving "ministers" who somehow convinced her that there was nothing wrong with that behavior - a position she now knows was wrong and for which she feels tremendous guilt WITHOUT your finger-pointing and heartless accusations. She knew full well what she did without you picking up stones waiting for the word "go." That's the part you're not getting. "Oh, she's blaming PFAL for what she did." She's doing no such thing. She's blaming PFAL for what she THOUGHT, which is fair game. But without your help, she already blamed herself for what she did, thankyouverymuch. You're being a heartless idiot, Oldiesman. The scorn you're receiving on this thread was earned by your heartlessness and you're earning interest on it with your stubbornness. I repeat: She already has an Accuser, Oldiesman. She doesn't need you.

She didn't get a free pass. She didn't ask for a free pass. She asked how she could ever have come to the mindset that such behavior was okay. What she needed was understanding. What she got was YOU pointing a finger, maybe picking up a couple of stones while you're at it. I'll bet you'd stitch an A on her blouse if you had the chance. Compassion? Not an ounce. Just blame, from you, as if she needed any more. Pitiful.

OM, She accepted responsibility. Did you know that one can accept responsibility for one's actions while STILL tracing the root cause of those actions? I can say, "I was responsible for the arrogant attitude I had when dealing with other Christians while I was in TWI" while still recognizing that arrogance is both wrong and a by-product of quite a bit of TWI teaching and behavior. You really don't get it, because you refuse to see some glaringly obvious truths. 1. Imbus already accepted responsibility for what she did. 2. TWI wrongly taught that "every woman in the kingdom belonged to the king." That was not true in the Old Testament, it was not true of the king. 3. People in TWI TWIsted that statement to apply to the MOG and to others who could "handle it." 4. Imbus did not blame that leader for what she did. She acknowledged that it happened and asked, openly, why did she think it was okay? Why did she lower and debase herself that way? Didn't blame the leader, but blamed the twisted application of the wrong doctrine that was taught in TWI. I don't know anything about mind control, but I do know that young people can be quite impressionable, especially when they are not in the presence of sound doctrine on these matters. To steal a phrase, you are truly proving yourself to be the world's only living heart donor.

I think mastery of moonshine preservation will leave you closer to God. After I don't know how many years of moonshine preservation, Littlehawk seems a much nicer person to hang with than the average PFAL master.

Baaaahahahahahahahahaha. I'm a Yankee but they knew better than to leave the moonshahn in mah room.