Raf

Ok, that's much better: The veracity of the Trinity OR the veracity of Biblical Unitarianism rises or falls on the doctrine, not on the integrity of those who espouse it. That's what Goey was saying, and it appears that you are saying the same thing.

Def, That's not what he said. You're grossly misrepresenting what Goey wrote. By your standard, anything taught by Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart should be dismissed, including the Trinity, life after death, etc.

I took someone to see the second movie, when she had not seen the first. It only took a few sentences for her to catch up. Here it is: A Harry Potter Primer For Those Who've Missed the First Two Movies. When Harry was an infant, his parents were killed by an evil wizard named Voldemort. He was so evil people are afraid to say his name to this day. Voldemort tried to kill the infant Harry, but failed. The encounter left Voldemort "dead," and Harry with a lightning bolt shaped scar. Needless to say, Harry became quite famous in the wizarding world. But he was unaware of this because, while still an infant, he was placed in the care of his non-wizard aunt and uncle. When Harry was 11, he learned that he was a wizard and that he was about to start a seven year education program at the Hogwarts school of witchcraft and wizardry. His aunt and uncle never told him this because they hate the whole idea of it. They are, shall we say, not encouraging. They have a porky son who's Harry's age. They dote over their son and are not very fond of Harry. Once Harry starts school, he makes two friends: Ron and Hermione. He also makes an enemy, Draco. And he thinks he has an enemy in Professor Snape, a dark-robed, sinister looking teacher who always seems to have it in for Harry. Harry's really good at flying a broom, so he's on one of the school's four Quidditch teams. Think mid-air hockey, although it's a touch more complicated than that. For reasons that would spoil the fun, I can't tell you why but every year (so far), a different teacher has been in charge of the class "Defense Against the Dark Arts." Year three is no different. Did I leave anything crucial out? Oh yes, Voldemort. Turns out he (paging Lord Sauron) is not quite dead. He's made two attempts so far to reincarnate. And some people (Draco's dad included) would love to see that happen.

You can say that again. If they reopen their bookstore, I would consider that a good thing. It's just honest. I wouldn't shop there, though. As someone already said, they don't sell anything I want/need that's not available at another Christian bookstore.

I didn't write it. Haven't even read it yet. I just figured this was the best place for it. It's a pdf file. And it's 97 pages long!! Here's an html version.

Doing some checking. Craley was apparently a "longtime" editor of The Way Magazine (which I think puts him a bit higher on the "official" scale than "established TWI believer").

We should contact David Craley and find out how leadership reacted to his article. It strikes me that the firsthand testimony of people who were ordered to get abortions takes precedence over the musings of an "established TWI believer" who may have been guilty of (gasp) independent thinking. Any way of getting a hold of him?

All I needed to know.

I often find myself missing TWI. But then, I'm not an experienced bomber pilot.

That's interesting advice, Refiner. I recall investigating the "cult" charges before I got involved, and I agree, most were doctrinal in nature. The few that were not doctrinal, I either didn't believe or, frankly, didn't care about. "Wierwille was a plagiarist." I never denied that, but I never cared either because plagiarism does not affect the content of the finished product. If it called Wierwille's integrity into question, that didn't matter to me because my involvement was not centered around or dependent on the integrity of VPW. "Wierwille said God talked to him and promised that God would teach him blah blah blah..." My response: Well, at least God didn't try to extort $8 million from Wierwille's followers by threatening his life. The guns thing was no longer happening, and the hunting course explanation seemed credible. I thought the Myth of the Sixth Million and other Anti-Semitic accusations were outright lies. It wasn't until these Web Sites came online that I realized this was true. I was not concerned about the allegations of "adultery" committed by a dead man, and by the time I heard rumors of sexual misconduct involving Martindale, I was just about out the door.

At some point the cafe will officially have more members than TWI. OhYour! Welcome. This is embarrassing but, I think I'm out of coffee. We have some Sanka in the back, if you'd settle for that. Oh! Wait, you're in luck! Someone made an emergency run.

Prove it.

Actually, Tom, I thought the same thing, but then I looked at Oldiesman's list again and I realized these were the smartest things LCM ever said. You should see the list of the dumbest things.

Uhh, yeah, uhh, ok. :)-->

Don't mean to pick a fight here, as I respect everyone's right to believe what they will. However, I think it's wrong to take these atheists and say "well, their religion was the state." They were atheists, and they performed as many atrocities as the best religious zealots. Redefining their atheism to have them qualify as "religious" is completely disingenuous. Basically, the moment someone commits an atrocity, you're going to redefine "religion" to include their motivation. That's called equivocation. Having said that, I acknowledge that the original question was about agnostics, not atheists. There's a distinct difference. Interesting chat.

Honest question: where does TWI teach this? I don't recall them ever distinguishing by trimester. I recall them saying that before the baby takes its first breath, it is not a living being. But I don't recall the distinction for which you are praising them. Could you clarify or point out where this was taught?

In the late 1970s there was this group who followed a cult leader named Jim Jones. Notorious. He had a bunch of them commit suicide by drinking kool-aid laced with cyanide. Those who did so willingly were last. First they had to take care of the unwilling. Since then, kool-aid drinkers has evolved into a condescending term for someone who does not question another's authority, no matter how absurd, illogical, hateful or hurtful an instruction the authority figure is demanding. TRIVIA NOTE: It wasn't Kool-Aid at Jonestown. It may have been "Flavor-Aid," a competitive knock-off. Don't drink the Kool-Aid.

In the late 1970s there was this group who followed a cult leader named Jim Jones. Notorious. He had a bunch of them commit suicide by drinking kool-aid laced with cyanide. Those who did so willingly were last. First they had to take care of the unwilling. Since then, kool-aid drinkers has evolved into a condescending term for someone who does not question another's authority, no matter how absurd, illogical, hateful or hurtful an instruction the authority figure is demanding. TRIVIA NOTE: It wasn't Kool-Aid at Jonestown. It may have been "Flavor-Aid," a competitive knock-off. Don't drink the Kool-Aid.

Refiner, You will, no doubt, see some parallels with the JW cult. WOW = Pioneer The Blue Book = The Truth that Leads to Eternal Life Mark and Avoid = disfellowshipped Household = The Truth Goey, you asked, what are dubs? Jdubs. As in J-W's. Dub. Dubya. J Dubya. Dubs. They are Jehovah's Witness Wayfers (more fattening, no doubt, since they are allowed to have incomes and, therefore, meals).

Refiner, You will, no doubt, see some parallels with the JW cult. WOW = Pioneer The Blue Book = The Truth that Leads to Eternal Life Mark and Avoid = disfellowshipped Household = The Truth Goey, you asked, what are dubs? Jdubs. As in J-W's. Dub. Dubya. J Dubya. Dubs. They are Jehovah's Witness Wayfers (more fattening, no doubt, since they are allowed to have incomes and, therefore, meals).

I didn't stay. Why would I have stayed? I can put myself into someone else's shoes and come up with good reasons. The people who left when I did gave vague reasons for doing so. I don't like "vague." I like specifics. I also don't think it's all that unreasonable to ask someone who is drawing a salary from TWI to actually believe that TWI and its leadership have something unique to offer. Why did I stay in the offshoot? Comfort. Everyone I knew was there. I am utterly unaware of any hint of a rumor of sexual abuse or misconduct in the offshoot. I ultimately left for purely personal reasons. When my marriage failed I needed a "time out," so to speak, from all this fellowship stuff. I needed time with Him, and in this case I got the distinct sense that I needed to do this alone. I had allowed other people to influence my thoughts for too long, and to be honest, I was so angry with Him that I was afraid I was going to take it out on those around me. So I dropped off the radar screen for a bit. When I emerged, the doctrine of the offshoot (CBC) was undergoing major changes, and I didn't feel comfortable with those changes. So I started going to a CES fellowship and, while I didn't believe every single thing they uttered, I was pleased that I could express my thoughts and not be shunned. I may not win "CESer of the Year" or anything, but I don't want to, either.

Good. I meant you the whole time. :D-->

LG: I was referring to myself. Sorry if you read that the wrong way, but it was not directed at you. Just an FYI.

Dateline: Whathefudge, ME June 1 The Internet domain name securing agency Register.com reported yesterday that some guy named Pat Something purchased 17 variations of the domain name "prevailinghousehold.com." Among the sites purchased were "theprevailinghousehold.com," "prevailinghousehold.org," "prevailinghousehold.net," "prevailinghousehold.bz," "theprevailinghouseholdformerlyknownasthewayinternational.com," and "rosalierosalieshesourman.wtf." Mr. Something denied that The Prevailing Household, a wacky wannabe cult unknown to anyone but its current and former adherents, had any rights to the name under U.S. Trademark Law or common sense. "The words 'prevailing' and 'household' are common words in the English language," Something said. "They don't have exclusive rights to it. I do not intend to cause any confusion between their business and the information I wish to provide." Mr. Something said he intends to provide information about their business. Mr. Thinksheknowsitall, a sometime critic of both Something and the Prevailing Word Inc., was approached for comment but ordered by both sides to shut up.

Agreed. The teaching here is that when a person becomes a Christian, he is born of God's seed. One cannot become "un-born again." Once you're saved, you cannot lose your salvation, no matter how egregious a sinner you become afterwards. You cannot do anything to remove the seed of your earthly father, so you cannot do anything to remove the seed of your Heavenly Father. A separate matter: I feel a need to expand on what I wrote earlier. Like Jehovah's Witnesses, TWI taught that the holy spirit is not a person, but a power. Jehovah's Witnesses call it "God's active force." TWI called it "power from on high." TWI taught that this holy spirit is the incorruptible seed and a token of our inheritance. The "nine gifts" of the spirit recorded in I Corinthians are not gifts, but nine manifestations of one gift. That is why anyone who has the spirit has the power to "operate" all nine manifestations. All believers have the gift of holy spirit. Someone already pointed out tithing. I can't believe I left that out, but yes, the importance of tithing is a key belief. I also agree with Oldiesman in placing the remission and forgiveness of sins as a key belief. A final point that I do not see mentioned elsewhere: It is a key belief of TWI that water baptism is not necessary. Ephesians teaches there is one baptism, and that is the baptism of the holy spirit. TWI, to the best of my knowledge, does not perform water baptisms.