Raf

As I said, the plagiarism is, for some of us, irrefutable proof that his work is not God-breathed. For us, this is not a distraction, but evidence against your position. You may disagree and call it what you want, but it is NOT a distraction in any sense of the word.

No, Mike, when I say it's wrong what I mean is, it's wrong. It demonstrates a fundamental lack of integrity, your excuses notwithstanding. In the post of mine that you quoted, I said Wierwille probably didn't care. I didn't say he was right not to care. Integrity is integrity: I don't care what field you're in. You don't turn it off for the church. If anything, you turn it ON for the church. It was NOT innocent.

HCW, I left you a PT yesterday. Don't know if you've had a chance to see it.

I have no idea what that means. But let me, in the spirit of helpfulness, clarify a few things: I have always said the same thing Oakspear said, although he said it in fewer words (and more clearly). I have no problem with your overall analysis above, except for the ludicrous assertion that others benefitted from Wierwille's plagiarism. It's tantamount to excusing a rape because the victim ended up having a beautiful baby - not nearly as serious, but the analogy holds. Wrong is wrong, no matter what right comes of it. Enough about that. I've often said that the existence of plagiarism in a published work does not in any way affect the validity of the content. It is only an issue if your discussing the character of the writer. In my estimation, the value of the plagiarism debate rests solely on the discussion of whether the plagiarism took place. Of this, there is simply no debate. The plagiarism took place. That you see the plagiarism as service, where I see it as patent dishonesty on the part of the writer, says nothing of the validity of the content. I have never dismissed anything Wierwille wrote simply because it was plagiarized. Our key difference on this subject is that where you see the hand of God directing Wierwille to "His" Word, I see irrefutable proof that Wierwille's work is not "The Word of God." It's a point of disagreement you and I will not resolve, so spare me the counterpoint (but feel free to discuss it with others). This is what I wrote in my forum this week: Anyway, this is supposed to be a pro-PFAL thread, and I will respect that. In my opinion, those who read PFAL without guile or pretense will walk away with a greater appreciation of The Bible, even if they don't accept every tenet or claim of PFAL. Paw, Please understand that just as Wierwille's claim that PFAL is not God breathed is interpreted by Mike to mean that PFAL is God breathed, your insistence that you were not joking is utterly irrelevant. Night is day, black is white, liberal is conservative and you were joking. Mike said so. Get with the program.

Someone put a pineapple on it?

He was DEFINITELY sent.

I'd put this in silly, but... 1. There's something in the back of my fridge that's been there since I moved to Florida from the Bronx. 2. I've got toe jam with the consistency of Jif. 3. Roses really don't smell like poo-poo. 4. It takes exactly 4.7 beers to get me to walk funny. 5. I really want to know what the hell is in the back of my fridge. 6. Mike and I are the same person. You've all been Punk'd! 7. I've never been offered an illegal drug. 8. No one wants to tell me that I can't sing, so they save their criticisms for after my fifth beer. 9. I've never been up for a Pulitzer, but I'm not bitter. Dammit. 10. What the @#$%^&^*! is that in my fridge?!?!?!

Now he's got some other stuff he's trying to peddle on other suckers. Sorry Mike, but you gave me a clear opening.

Oh, and I think he knew about the plagiarism but, except possibly for the Leonard material, didn't think it was a big deal: Bullinger was dead, after all. Plus, he probably was not thinking of his books as "scholarship" so much as tracts.

Aw now COME ON!

The moment you do, it is no longer a pizza. Oops. Wrong thread.

Call me gullible, but I give VPW the benefit of the doubt on anything that can't be reasonably proven false. I believe he knew the snow on the gas pumps to be a lie. I believe he knew the Tulsa snowstorm to be a lie. I suspect he was outright lying about the 1942 promise. On doctrine, I think he really believed it.

Not at all. Krys, Dave: I apologize if I insulted your intelligence. I seriously, seriously question the product, not you.

I feel like the cab driver in Superman II: Man, this is gonna be good.

Why does the fact that you misjudged us surprise you? The rest of us are used to it by now. :)-->

Uncle Hairy

Krys, I left you a PT.

Jesus. The second geekfocus site is the popfly version. 1781.4, first try. 1869.3, top

Wow. 1200.3 It's like cheating, but legit. 1215!

492.7 is as far as I can go. 1052.1 on the Geekfocus site. :)-->

AH! I see. I missed a page of this thread.

HCW, Please understand that we've had this discussion here before, and your comment probably reopened a wound or two. Also, I suggest you need to understand that no matter how clear it may be to you, to an impressionable person learning that so many things she THOUGHT she knew about God were wrong, to have someone acting as God's man on earth tell you that it's God's will to satisfy his lust might carry on a tad more weight than warranted, especially today, with the benefit of more than 20 years of hindsight. How DeLIGHTful for you to remind these women that "adultery" is wrong, as if they haven't tortured themselves with that thought these many years. How WONDerful that you should use gutter street language to describe what they went through. How convenient that you ignore (whether intentionally or not) that on more than one occasion, the actions of which we speak were not consensual. Why do people ignore the first half of what you said? Simple. Because the second half was so ignorant and detestable that it obliterated any olive branch you were trying to hold out. I didn't know Wierwille. You obviously did. Bravo that he never hurt either of us. But there are those he did hurt. And they post here. They're your sisters. I suggest you treat them with at least as much respect as you treat your memory of VPW.

Ah, you are correct on the "ashamed" line. I would rephrase, but why? :)--> And please, don't go away from the thread. I'll leave if you do. :(-->

How are you guys getting 580 and 590? you counting inches or feet?

323.5 is that a tie?