Raf

We seem to be missing a distinction between something boneheaded (like not saying who you are) and something that's worth suing over. I don't care how right anyone thinks that woman is: this was not an actionable offense, IMO.

Ray Liotta Hannibal Gary Oldman See? There were other actors in Hannibal. :)-->

No, but out of decency and integrity I expect you to honor my wish, or at least include that I think your claims are bunk. It's not a lie. It's a joke, just like Penta Water.

Clint Eastwood In the Line of Fire Rene Russo

Statement 1: Statement 2: Statement 1 makes statement 2 utterly irrelevant as a justification for plagiarism (for which, by the way, you have made a better case than we). To say Wierwille "popularized" Kenyon is to show that you knew neither man.

When VPW said check things out, I think he meant compare them to the Bible, not "go find the books I'm referring to without telling you what they are." I agree with your statement that there's plenty in PFAL that is not plagiarized. Can you agree that there's plenty in PFAL that was? In other words, there's plenty in the work of VPW that is not merely the restating of another's idea, but the deliberate re-use of others' expression of those ideas, without attribution? Can you honestly compare the question 8's and say that this was Wierwille's original expression?

I thought Groundhog Day was yesterday. Oh no! It's starting again!

We were having the same conversation at the LES Forum. Interesting related link.

So much for not using the low hanging fruit from Hannibal. :)--> Se7en Kevin Spacey The Usual Suspects

I would rather you not use me as evidence of anything, unless you're gathering a list of people who think Penta Water is bunk. I am far more in agreement with what Zixar has written than I am with what you have written, and using me for any other purpose would be dishonest. And PLEASE stop criticizing people for choosing to remain anonymous on a message board. The tactic has already been discredited several times on this thread.

Reed is the only guy I know who has been posting for YEARS and still has "Discoverer" as his karma. He's the anti-excy. :)-->

Thanks for the clarification, Long Gone. If it wasn't illegal, fine. It was petty and vindictive.

Here's what gets me. I thought VPW didn't cite the other authors because he didn't want to distract us from the content and then send us off to buy the other books. THEN the argument switches to "the other books would not have sold as well without VPW" (which, incidentally, is a charge I'd like you to prove, but I know you can't, first because it's false, and second because you won't try). Hey, which is it? He wanted us to buy the other books and get them their fair money, or he didn't want to distract us by leading us to his original but flawed sources.

When did I say it wasn't? By the way, if you think the classes didn't make TWI a significant amount of money, you're out of your bloomin mind. 100,000 people taking PFAL at $50 (avg) is $5 million right there. Not bad. Add to that the number taking the intermediate class and other advanced studies, and I'm figuring TWI pulled in a pretty penny on classes.

What The Hay's analysis of copyright law is correct, but sorely misapplied. Writing for a non-profit publication does not absolve one of the need for proper attibution. A comparison of Question 8 in Receiving the Holy Spirit Today to the corresponding Question 8 in the JE Stiles book shows quite clearly that this was not the mere repeating of an idea, but outright plagiarism (by any legal standard: I can't convince you or Mike that God, who is infinitely wise, does not need to order a man to commit plagiarism to get His point across, but at the very least I can show that Wierwille's plagiarisms are in no way covered by the "fair use" provisions in copyright law). Note, I said "Wierwille's plagiarisms" are not covered. I did not say everything Wierwille has been accused of is plagiarism. Getting an idea from somewhere and repeating it is not always plagiarism (it sometimes is).

Jurassic Park 2 Julianne Moore Hannibal And a challenge to avoid the low hanging fruit in Hannibal. Rules update: I said on the first page that voices count (ie, Antonio Banderas in Shrek 2). What doesn't count is soundtrack voices, so, for example, we can't use Phil Collins for Tarzan because he only sang on the soundtrack: he wasn't the voice of a character. Rosie O'Donnell was the voice of a character, so she would count. Carry on. :)-->

Sigh. That's not what I said. All I said was "I don't think this stuff is harmful." I did not claim this on the basis of any evidence whatsoever, anecdotal or otherwise. It's the absence of evidence that leads me to this conclusion (ie, no reports of people drinking it and developing liver disease, for example).

Happy Birthday Shell!

Welcome to the Cafe. Wierwille cited Martin's books several times in JCOPS. I've never read Martin's book on the subject.

It's legal for TWI to seek the information, but illegal for Pitney Bowes to provide it (assuming Bluzeman to be correct). If TWI just asked for it and received it, they did nothing wrong (again, assuming Bluzeman to be correct about the law on this). But if they did anything else, (a payoff, a mole, etc), then that would be of, shall I say, questionable legality.

I just happened to be going over Karl's book the last few nights.

Tonto, Yes, it's a good idea to bold the entries to distinguish them from the chit chat. The Scarlet Letter Gary Oldman Bram Stoker's Dracula

I did not know that. :)-->

By the way, I didn't say anything earlier, but it's good to see you back. I was going to offer you some coffee, but in your case...

Sigh. Looks like several hundred years from now, I still will not have won my little crusade. :)--> I didn't know about the casting call. That's a good one. I did know about Bill Paxton, though. Is he the one who gets a punch through the gut? I forget. But I do recall he was one of them. The script for Rocky was written in three days. I'll bet you didn't know that. :)-->