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Mark, I would have let your post stand. I could easily be wrong about how Greek grammar works. :)

You can bet if VPW had told HC that PFAL was God-breathed, Mike would latch onto that as further proof of his position. I can't imagine anything ambiguous about a conversation with VPW concerning whether or not the PFAL books are God-breathed. "I didn't write the book." Please. We know he didn't write the book. Stiles did. And Bullinger, and Kenyon, and... :)

The REAL "THE."

It's not that HCW would mind. It's that it would take a lot of work to find this post right here.

Dangerously close? That's like saying Brokeback Mountain came dangerously close to being about gays. A thesis paper would be a good idea, but he'd never do it for the same reason Satan never wrote a book: he would have to commit himself to its contents. Dooj: I do not have a quote, but note that Mike didn't challenge the fact. He knows my citation is genuine; he just doesn't accept it because to do so would effectively end his thesis. He's essentially calling someone a liar. The person I'm referring to hasn't posted in a while. His handle was HCW.

I don't know if Greek works the same way, but in English, a subject and "object" are both in the same case IF the verb is what is known as a linking verb. Linking verbs are neither transitive nor intransitive: they simply exist. It tells you that the subject isn't actually doing anything; it's being something. "To be" is the classic linking verb. For example, I knock on your door and you ask: "Who is it?" Grammatically, the correct answer is: "It is I." The subject is "It." The linking verb is "is." The "object" is "I," but it is in the subjective case, not the objective (which would be "me"). When a noun follows a linking verb, it's in the subjective case and is referred to as a "predicate nominative." All of which is to say I would expect both nouns to be in the nominative case when the verb in question is a linking verb. In other words, Mark, your exposition on "The Word was God" may not quite prove anything, except the existence of grammar (assuming Greek grammar works the same as English in this case). We would not expect "God" to be in the dative case, because that would be poor grammar. The shorter answer is that the word "pros" sometimes means exactly what Wierwille said it means, and it sometimes means other things.

George, Can you think of any other people at that meeting who can confirm that story? I mean, I'm kind of in shock about it. Not quite denial, but it would be interesting to get some corroboration, you know?

Heaven forbid!

Mike, When Wierwille said "I didn't write the book," he was referring to "The Cat in the Hat" and "Anna Karenina." He was not referring to the PFAL series. You are so adept at twisting words that Wierwille could say the sky is blue, not brown, blonde or periwinkle, and you would argue that the sky is fuschia because fuschia is not brown, blonde or periwinkle.

HCW: Hey, Doc. Are your works God-breathed? VPW: No. Very subtle. The people closest to Jesus, who MADE the statement in Matthew 13:57, stood by his claims. True, family members wavered. I'm sure some friends did too. But 11 of the 12 all declared him Messiah after his death and resurrection. Fast forward to Wierwille: the people closest to him all, to a person, say your claim is false. It takes a few degrees of separation to arrive at your particular delusion, and no one, not even Wierwille himself can talk you out of it. Waste of life. And a waste of potential Christian service.

Umm, Mike, the difference is this: None of us places any weight on what "Dr." said in private. So if he told you those things, so what? But YOU do place weight on what he said in private (and you're lying through your teeth if you say otherwise). I guarantee that if VPW told you in private that you were on the right track, you'd suddenly talk about how important and vital his private communications were. Wierwille did not believe what you're saying about PFAL. How do we know this? 1. None of the people closest to him testifies he felt that way. 2. A credible poster had a specific conversation with him about it, and Wierwille made his position clear. You're deluded, Mike. You're wasting your time and, sad to say, your life.

Oh.

So the established fact that Wierwille did not believe his written works to be what Mike considers them to be, and that he expressed this view to others who directly asked him about it, is not valid to dismiss Mike's thesis. Funny. Not even VPW agreed with Mike's thesis.

Only if you severely misinterpret the tradition. Not once did the U.S. invite Olympic Gold Medalists from the USSR to the White House. Or from most other countries. They invite the champions of American competitions, or American winners of international competitions. Surely there are exceptions. But generally, unless Cuba becomes a state... P.S. If you really want this to be about baseball, then talk about baseball. "Combat operations in Iraq have ceased" has nothing to do with baseball. it has to do with you hating Bush, which is your prerogative, but it's somewhat disingenuous to turn around and say "now, now, let's keep this about baseball..."

Whoops! Sorry, I mistakenly thought this was the sports forum for a second.

Why doesn't he just throw the soap out?

The only thing God ever said to VP was "Knock it off!" :)

This would be incorrect reasoning. Even if every single thing Christ did was God-breathed, doesn't mean we need to know it. Many of Christ's healings, undoubtedly God-breathed, were truncated and "glossed over" in the gospels, not because they were not God-breathed, but because the details weren't a part of what we need to know. VPW did not write "every word I write is true"; he wrote "every word I write to you is true," which means the discussion of his laundry list is not relevant. I do not believe every word VPW wrote in the relevant books is true, though I do believe we can find a great deal of truth in them (others may heartily disagree).

WTH: I think "pretend" is the wrong word. The appropriate word is "appear." I'm waiting to see how the rest of the conversation plays out before I decide whether to say anything else on the subject. I'd also like to point out that I never said VPW was "out of order" when he wrote "every word I write is true," so I'm a bit at a loss as to why you're trying to refute me there (unless I'm misunderstanding you). I believe Mike's interpretation and application of that statement are out of order, not that the statement itself is. I mean, what's he going to write: "If you really believe God, and Jesus is your Lord, you'll see I'm wrong and lying through my teeth"? Of course not.

I think you got me beat on this one, Tops.

I think the acid test to whether or not PFAL is God-breathed is whether PFAL has the qualities it claims are characteristic of God-breathed work. It doesn't. And it doesn't claim to, unless you rip words from their contexts and apply them where they have no business being applied. When Wierwille writes "every word I have written to you is true," he is speaking in the immediate context of the instructions he's giving on speaking in tongues. He is not talking about every word from page one of PFAL to the final page of Order My Steps in Thy Word. You have to rip that clause from its context to get it to apply to everything he wrote. As top of the world noted quite clearly, VPW specifically and deliberately excluded his own writings from the God-breathed Word, and this thesis of Mike's is only possible if you twist PFAL so that it says the exact opposite of what's written on the page. I think PFAL is quite valuable, though imperfect. Might even help you put a bike together, so to speak. I simply don't believe it is what Mike (and only Mike) claims it to be. PFAL doesn't claim it. VPW didn't claim it. Only one seriously deluded disciple claims it, and refuses, REFUSES to be swayed from that opinion. The result: not dialogue, but diatribe.

Oldiesman, I have never seen more callous, cold-heartedness coming from you before, ever. This is beyond the worst for you. If you really don't know the kind of psychological pressure that can be put on a woman by cult leaders, and if you really think you have a better handle on what rascal personally witnessed and experienced than she does, then your opinion should be valued for what it is: ignorant at best. Your head is so deep in the sand that if you opened your eyes you'd see the Great Wall.

Tom, Springer ain't that far off the mark! :) As for me... really, is there any question? Ummm....

I onlee like reel peet-sa, no pine apples.