Raf

HCW: Hey, Doc. Are your works God-breathed? VPW: No. Very subtle. The people closest to Jesus, who MADE the statement in Matthew 13:57, stood by his claims. True, family members wavered. I'm sure some friends did too. But 11 of the 12 all declared him Messiah after his death and resurrection. Fast forward to Wierwille: the people closest to him all, to a person, say your claim is false. It takes a few degrees of separation to arrive at your particular delusion, and no one, not even Wierwille himself can talk you out of it. Waste of life. And a waste of potential Christian service.

Umm, Mike, the difference is this: None of us places any weight on what "Dr." said in private. So if he told you those things, so what? But YOU do place weight on what he said in private (and you're lying through your teeth if you say otherwise). I guarantee that if VPW told you in private that you were on the right track, you'd suddenly talk about how important and vital his private communications were. Wierwille did not believe what you're saying about PFAL. How do we know this? 1. None of the people closest to him testifies he felt that way. 2. A credible poster had a specific conversation with him about it, and Wierwille made his position clear. You're deluded, Mike. You're wasting your time and, sad to say, your life.

Oh.

So the established fact that Wierwille did not believe his written works to be what Mike considers them to be, and that he expressed this view to others who directly asked him about it, is not valid to dismiss Mike's thesis. Funny. Not even VPW agreed with Mike's thesis.

Only if you severely misinterpret the tradition. Not once did the U.S. invite Olympic Gold Medalists from the USSR to the White House. Or from most other countries. They invite the champions of American competitions, or American winners of international competitions. Surely there are exceptions. But generally, unless Cuba becomes a state... P.S. If you really want this to be about baseball, then talk about baseball. "Combat operations in Iraq have ceased" has nothing to do with baseball. it has to do with you hating Bush, which is your prerogative, but it's somewhat disingenuous to turn around and say "now, now, let's keep this about baseball..."

Whoops! Sorry, I mistakenly thought this was the sports forum for a second.

Why doesn't he just throw the soap out?

The only thing God ever said to VP was "Knock it off!" :)

This would be incorrect reasoning. Even if every single thing Christ did was God-breathed, doesn't mean we need to know it. Many of Christ's healings, undoubtedly God-breathed, were truncated and "glossed over" in the gospels, not because they were not God-breathed, but because the details weren't a part of what we need to know. VPW did not write "every word I write is true"; he wrote "every word I write to you is true," which means the discussion of his laundry list is not relevant. I do not believe every word VPW wrote in the relevant books is true, though I do believe we can find a great deal of truth in them (others may heartily disagree).

WTH: I think "pretend" is the wrong word. The appropriate word is "appear." I'm waiting to see how the rest of the conversation plays out before I decide whether to say anything else on the subject. I'd also like to point out that I never said VPW was "out of order" when he wrote "every word I write is true," so I'm a bit at a loss as to why you're trying to refute me there (unless I'm misunderstanding you). I believe Mike's interpretation and application of that statement are out of order, not that the statement itself is. I mean, what's he going to write: "If you really believe God, and Jesus is your Lord, you'll see I'm wrong and lying through my teeth"? Of course not.

I think you got me beat on this one, Tops.

I think the acid test to whether or not PFAL is God-breathed is whether PFAL has the qualities it claims are characteristic of God-breathed work. It doesn't. And it doesn't claim to, unless you rip words from their contexts and apply them where they have no business being applied. When Wierwille writes "every word I have written to you is true," he is speaking in the immediate context of the instructions he's giving on speaking in tongues. He is not talking about every word from page one of PFAL to the final page of Order My Steps in Thy Word. You have to rip that clause from its context to get it to apply to everything he wrote. As top of the world noted quite clearly, VPW specifically and deliberately excluded his own writings from the God-breathed Word, and this thesis of Mike's is only possible if you twist PFAL so that it says the exact opposite of what's written on the page. I think PFAL is quite valuable, though imperfect. Might even help you put a bike together, so to speak. I simply don't believe it is what Mike (and only Mike) claims it to be. PFAL doesn't claim it. VPW didn't claim it. Only one seriously deluded disciple claims it, and refuses, REFUSES to be swayed from that opinion. The result: not dialogue, but diatribe.

Oldiesman, I have never seen more callous, cold-heartedness coming from you before, ever. This is beyond the worst for you. If you really don't know the kind of psychological pressure that can be put on a woman by cult leaders, and if you really think you have a better handle on what rascal personally witnessed and experienced than she does, then your opinion should be valued for what it is: ignorant at best. Your head is so deep in the sand that if you opened your eyes you'd see the Great Wall.

Tom, Springer ain't that far off the mark! :) As for me... really, is there any question? Ummm....

I onlee like reel peet-sa, no pine apples.

It is abolutely on his gravestone.

Independence Day

Another part of the explanation could be that Satan did know about the concept of a new birth as far back as Genesis, but did not know that he would make it possible by crucifying Jesus. That seems more in line with what the verse is saying anyway. Anyway, interesting discussion. I still don't believe in an unforgivable sin after Jesus paid the price for all sin.

Yeh. Hey Sharon! It's still supposed to be your turn. You want a go, or shall totw?

Got it. Carry on.

Mike, Counterfeiting, imitating, duplicating, replicating... point is, the genuine has to exist or be known before the alternative can. Hey, Somebody, good post. And welcome. According to Wierwille, the permanence of the seed of the serpent is as permanent as holy spirit seed. That's my recollection, anyway. I'm sure Mike or What the Hey will correct me if I'm mistaken. Mike, I've always acknowledged a distinction between TVTs and what's actually written in the books. That's why the actual errors list only cites actual errors that are in the books.

Ok, guys, can you tell me how you get Bonnie and Clyde from those pics? I see Bun, and I see UncleHide... But what's with the kid? Lad, boy... Nee? Who calls kids "nee"?

To which Mike replies: Mike, I think this statement is characteristic of the reckless way you handle the things we say, the things the Bible says, and the things PFAL says. You change and twist words around all the time, and rip them out of their contexts to bolster your flawed opinion. I did not say a counterfeit must be after the fact. I said a counterfeit must be after knowledge of the fact, and that's self-evident. You cannot counterfeit something if (a) it hasn't happened, and (b) you don't know it's going to happen. Your whole "counterfeit dollar bill plans" is irrelevant to the question I asked (however, some of the other things you mentioned go directly to the point I was trying to make). I think (as you apparently do) the "new birth" was known long before the mystery was revealed, as was Christ in you (after all, Jesus explicitly mentioned that concept long before Paul). The only question is, when? When was it first made known? If it's first made known in the OT scriptures, then Satan can only counterfeit it AFTER it is revealed. Honest question: Does Wierwille write anywhere that Cain was born of the seed of the serpent? I know this as TVT ;), but I don't remember reading it anywhere, nor do I care enough to look it up (because I think Wierwille got that whole concept wrong to begin with).

Oh, Grow a sense of humor, both of yas. Finding an ACTUAL error can be a great thing too. I means that you're ACTUALLY out of your friggin skull if you think this is the re-issued new and improved testament. :)