Raf

I think if there wasn't a good side, or at least a side that looked really good, people wouldn't have stayed in for so long. No one could teach as frequently as Wierwille without sitting down and reading and studying and attempting to understand and see the relationships between Biblical records. I get that. So it doesn't surprise me that someone would observe VPW studying the Bible. And that's good. It really is. And a lot of what was taught was really helpful (even some of the wrong stuff, for while I no longer believe in a "law" of believing, I DO believe in the value of maintaining a positive outlook, expecting the best, etc.). I think it would be a mistake to look at the "good" myopically, though. Whatever good was in TWI came with a horrifying and frankly unacceptable pricetag. I am fortunate in that I did not really pay that price. But I know others did, and I won't forget that any more than I will forget whatever good I managed to get from my experience. NP, sorry if it looked like I was picking on you or being argumentative. I didn't intend to act that way. And if I didn't say it yet, welcome to GSC!

Everyone's an imperfect human. VPW was a predator who used God's people and his perceived authority under God to satisfy his lusts, destroying the lives and reputations of those who spoke up and passing on his ungodly justifications for his reprehensible actions to his successor. Not everyone fits THAT description.

It's almost refreshing to hear stories like that... Until you realize other ways he used that motor coach.

Thought you guys might like to see this. Presstime is the magazine of the Newspaper Association of America http://www.naa.org/sitecore/content/Home/P...20u40-7-13.aspx Scary photo alert...

I don't get it.

i don't think stifle is the answer.

You DO know that's not Bo Derek, right?

I was trying to draw a distinction between what you say he did, which was not plagiarism, and what he actually did, which was plagiarism. Here's a real easy example: In JE Stiles' book on the Holy Spirit (I forget the name of the book), Stiles has a chapter of common questions and answers. One of the questions is whether people can receive "false" tongues, or something like that. Compare the same section of Receiving the Holy Spirit today, and you'll find that the question and answer are lifted almost word for word! That's dishonest. There's nothing in RTHST that talks about Stiles or credits him for his contribution to the book. It was a wholesale theft. Stiles: 8. Is it not possible for a Christian to receive false tongues or a false spirit when seeking to receive the Holy Spirit? Wierwille: 8. Is it possible for a Christian to receive false tongues or a false spirit when believing for the holy spirit? Stiles: Answer: When people ask that question, we know that they; have somewhere come in contact with one of the "faith blasters" who go about making statements which have no foundation in Scripture. When we suggest to earnest Christians that they may get something false, when seeking more of the fulness of God, we sinfully dishonor God and His Holy Spirit. Where, we ask, is there the slightest suggestion in the Bible that the Christian, whose heart longs for more of God, may get false tongues or a false spirit? If such a thing could happen, it would have to be true that, either God was too careless and indifferent about the welfare of His children, or else he was too weak to protect them from the power of the enemy. Wierwille: When I am asked that question, I know that person has come into contact with those whom i term "faith blasters," who go about making statements which have no foundation in Scripture. When someone suggests to earnest Christians that they are in danger of receiving something false when believing to manifest the fulness of God according to God's Word, he sinfully dishonors God. Where is there a chapter or verse indicating that a Christian my get false tongues? It is an unreasonable idea, for the loving Father cares for His children and stands ready with His might to protect them from the power of enemy. Notice any similarities? It's not just a matter of being in agreement on teaching, or teaching something someone else taught before you. It's lifting the words and pretending you wrote them. You may decide that doesn't matter much to you, and that's fine. But to say he credited the writers is a deliberate misrepresentation of what he did, and an apology for his flagrant dishonesty. It is behavior we would not accept from the secular word. To excuse it in the name of God is equally dishonest. I'm not saying that you have done so. I suspect you haven't really thought this through with a proper understanding of what plagiarism is. Do I think the early books were intentionally plagiarized? It's not a matter of what I think. It's easily documentable that countless works of VPW consisted in part of plagiarized writings, without credit to the authors. I'll agree with you on that, as far as it goes. But it has nothing to do with his plagiarism. ALL CHRISTIAN TEACHERS, whether they are right or wrong, fit the description you give. Not all are plagiarists. You don't have to resort to plagiarism to be an effective Christian teacher. Lest we derail, I'll stop here and refer you to http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_stiles.htm and http://www.greasespotcafe.com/editorial/pl...m-wierwille.htm

and add a little more drambuie.

What a shock. I got 'em all right.

On THE what?

By the way, my comments and quotes were from ROW's post, not CK's. Just in case there was a misunderstanding. I do not argue with CK any longer, any more than I argue with my butt. When it does what it needs to do, I accommodate it, clean up, and go about my business without thinking much about it afterward.

One of my favorite things about George: I like disagreeing with him as much as I like agreeing with him. You're a great mind. Luvya, man.

Xanadu Olivia Newton-John Grease

Oh, that's good. moore fizz rome ants I think you're right.

Ah yes, the old CES forum. I remember it like it was only yesterday. They shut it down, and i went over to Waydale to tell everyone, and, and... Shoot, the computer just hiccupped or something. Wonder what ever became of that? :)

Welcome to GSC.Not to start off on a bad foot, here, but that quote tells me you don't know what plagiarism is. It is NOT "teaching the same thing." It is taking what someone else wrote and pretending you wrote it. It could be a sentence, a paragraph, a chapter or a book. Most examples of plagiarism show some changes from the original work. That doesn't stop it from being plagiarism. It's fundamentally dishonest, in a field that highly values fundamental honesty. You can read all about it in my new book, Power for Abundant Living. You'd be amazed at how simple it is, and it rarely gets in the way. In one chapter of "Order My Steps in Thy Word," VPW excellently quotes and attributes the quote to EW Kenyon, even while plagiarizing Kenyon in the very same chapter! It's amazing: He does it blatantly while showing, for anyone who cares to see, that he doesn't have to do it!

Easy one: "Three weeks ago, one of our most *celebrated* ambassadors and advisors to Federation leaders for generations, disappeared. He left no word of his destination. Two days ago, intelligence reports placed him on Romulus, and I assure you it was an unauthorized visit." **** "A defection?" "If it is, the damage to Federation security would be immeasurable."

I'm not so sure. I think it would be just as wrong to disqualify the program BECAUSE of its religious content as it would be to disqualify the program for not having any religious content. I think it's an interesting constitutional question. It would be wrong for the state to require people to go through that program, but to penalize them for choosing that program over another one would be just as much a violation of the constitution. And I hope it goes without saying that the judge has no right whatsoever to assess a particular movement's compatibility with Christianity.

Personally, I'm getting a little tired of being judged as judgmental. "Excuse me, I don't mean to judge, but I think the pilot of that plane is heading toward that building. Not to question his motives or anything. But let's wait and see what happens before we say anything for sure. Holy cow, looks like I was right. Wow. Straight into the building. Hey, look, another plane ont he same flight path. Now, I don't want to judge, but..." BE SOBER AND VIGILANT!!! vigilant: alert to the possibilty and/or presence of danger. But of course, to call something dangerous is to judge it, no?

Descent ST: TNG Guest appearance by Stephen Hawking, the ONLY person in Star Trek history to play himself.

I say George said the name and it should be his turn.

Lorna, When I said Elizabeth is not on trial, I meant that whether she is "innocent" in what happened between her and JAL is not the point. I agree that it appears STFI intruded on her marriage, but the fact that there were other contributing factors is none of my business.

Matthew, welcome to GS.

Captain Crunch, thank you for clarifying the "sexual involvement" statement. You're right; it did look like there was an affair to cover up. If Mark is using his current ministry position to prey upon women and cover it up as godly, that's reprehensible. There's no evidence of that whatsoever. If Mark, 20 years ago, had a moment of weakness and was put in his place, I hope and pray he learned his lesson and has moved on, as we all should (as far as that incident is concerned).