Raf

I can see it fine. Wonder why others can't. Bank Holiday ?

Come on! :) Stakeholder is an innocent term. Non-profits use it all the time. It means people with an interest in the organization's success. They include donors, clients and potential clients, and staff. There are others. But it really is an innocent term.

Finally saw it today. I thought this was a very good movie, and yes, MUCH better than Rocky V. There's a scene early on that brought tears to my eyes, the only truly unexpected lines in the whole movie. And they revealed a piece of a character you never thought you'd see revealed. Definitely worth the price.

Hey, Cowgirl, good to see ya! Signed, and I swear I'm not making this up... Incredible Butt. But if I include my middle name, I become Doctor Crippler!

T-bone beat me to the joke. :) Alright, ready? WWWWWWWipe! Flussssshhhhhhhh!!!!!

See if I get this straight: In their hearts, everyone involved in the CESpool wants to serve God. But they're taking polar opposite approaches, and each side is convinced it is serving God. So rather than consider they might be wrong, they write the will of God to conform to their own actions and behavior. It's done subconsiously, though, a form of self-deception, right? === On a different note, if JAL really is reading this as a different screen name (as alleged by an earlier post), then hopefully this should help and he can pass it along to Mark: You DO have a case of dueling prophecies here, right? Well, doesn't the Bible refer to itself as a MORE SURE word of prophecy, more sure than the vision the apostles saw with Jesus in Gethsemane, more sure than actually HEARING the voice of God audibly? Call me silly, but if the prophetic is unreliable (and there's no ifs about it: THE PROPHETIC IN CES/STFI REGARDING THE CURRENT CRISIS IS UNRELIABLE), then why don't you guys rely on something a bit more reliable? And that's addressed to both sides.

Actually, oldies, you gave me my biggest laugh of the day with one of your posts today. Happy New Year.

She did ask me to keep it private.

No one pulled me into a van and ordered me to hate Wierwille. Wierwille pulled some people into a van, but it wasn't to wash their brains. Sycophant.

Correct

Umm, as a non-profit board member, I can say that $60,000 a month is NOT a lot of money. It's $720,000 a year. Considering the costs involved of running a national/international group, well, let's just say it's not poverty, but it's not a fortune either.

Nor should you. It's a farce, an open invitation to personal manipulation and abuse. Why invite into your lives what you worked so hard to free yourself from? Speaking of which, justpassingthrough must really like the word "vomit." A related word showed up in the unsolicited pm she sent to me, too. I promised not to share the contents, but I never said anything about sharing the fact that she sent me one.

God wasn't sending me any visions, so I just had to go to the Internet for myself. :)

It IS in their letter. I just missed it: That's I Cor. 14, for those who don't remember. So, let's see, two or three prophets should speak (which assumes there will be more than that). The others (other what? I think other prophets sounds reasonable, but it could just be referring to other Christians in the room) weigh carefully what is said. Sounds to me, however, like these folks are going through the motions. Based on the fruit being exhibited, including the destruction of a marriage (that's alleged), endless meddling in each other's personal affairs (acknowledged) and the near dissolution of a church (observed), their prophecies consist no more of words from God than they do words from Stephen King. In fact, I think they're getting more from Stephen King than the King of Kings.

Actually, I do recall some basis for something along those lines. I'm sure it's in their letter, so I can look it up quickly. It's not in their letter. I'll look it up later.

Did you ever doubt me?

Potato, I'm seeing illness in your family, but please, do not worry. It will be over in five to seven days, as long as the affected person drinks plenty of fluids and gets enough rest. Thus saith the Lord.

Let's see: who are the most reliable prophets in the CESpool? (thank you to whoever came up with that: I can't remember who). Ah, here it is, p. 11: "Tier One: Mature, ordained prophets in good standing with a track record for giving accurate prophecies that extends back at least ten years. Only Tom, Susan and Karen Anne are in this category..." How danged convenient!

By the way, pages 12-28 of this document contain detailed prophetic images and their interpretations. And another 10 pages on prophets and prophecy, clearly intended to establish the authority of the prophetic images that are set forth. It is among the most self-serving documents I have ever read, and I've covered criminal trials. God told me, God showed me, Mark is a pilot of a jumboJet. he's David. He's Job. He's... How CONVENIENT this document must be. Abigail, I understand what you're saying. I simply think the prophetic has given these guys an unparalleled outlet for the immature behavior we can all see. They even have a built-in defense of it (I'm not kidding). "it was noted that there has been a prophetic theme that has pointed to a demonic assault on Karen Anne to shut down her voice." Well, No Shugar, Sherlock! it took God to tell you that people were going to stand up to this silliness? Dude, I cancelled my involvement in CES just for the privilege of not having to hear her voice coming out of my tape player anymore. That wasn't demonic of me; it was necessary for my vehicle maintenance! If I'd heard her refer to herself as a prophetess one more time I'd have rammed my car into a tree. But congratulations on coming up with visions and dreams that would insulate you against the criticism of this meddling, SELF-APPOINTED prophet. That way, when someone complains, "Hey, I can't find any Biblical justification for the utter nonsense that's taking place here," you can respond, "Wow! She predicted this would happen! You're of the devil." You've headed off dissent at the pass. You've made it impossible to disagree with her. You've made it impossible for her to be wrong! You've killed free thinking and reasoned dissent. Congratulations. You've returned to New knoxville. CES/STFI: You people are behaving like a bunch of spoiled children. Worse, you're behaving like a bunch of highly skilled manipulators. And to think, you issued tapes on respecting boundaries. Remember that? You ought to be ashamed of yourselves.

Well, I don't think you crossed any lines or said anything inappropriate, but okay!

I apologize for bringing up Titanic in that the analogies that come to mind are profound and (hopefully) premature. I only meant to say that the more facts you have, the better, but it's not always necessary to have every minute detail of fact in order to draw a conclusion that serious errors have been made. E.J. Smith was a profoundly good captain. He was experienced, brilliant, the most prized captain in the White Star line. And yet, most bios you read about him open the exact same way. One lousy bad voyage, and his legacy is marred. May the leaders of CES/STFI live out a different fate. I see the letter from the clergy (written by Mark?) refers to him as "the spiritual leader of this church." Have you people learned nothing? CHRIST is the spiritual leader of the church! Mark is the titular leader of an organization that's supposed to be dedicated to SERVING the church. Dangit!

As was yours.

Agreed, it's not the whole story. "The Titanic struck an iceberg on its maiden voyage and sank to the bottom of the Atlantic in April 1912" isn't the whole story either, but it still tells you quite a bit.

Ex10, I'm trying to weigh what you say here, but there are some things that make these more than just "Internet postings." These are letters designed for public consumption, almost pleading with their readers to exercise sound judgment. I doubt highly that they want to deal with hundreds and hundreds of phone calls from people around the country. I am sure they want their words to speak for themselves. What their words are telling me as that there is a PROFOUND level of immaturity at the highest levels of CES/STFI, and it ALL gets traced back to the error in practice, and probably doctrine, of personal prophecy. One need read only a few pages of these documents to come to the inescapable conclusion that the ministry has been overtaken by otitis externa. 2 Tim 4:3: For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears. The fact that MG wants the prophetic input to be considered as they go forward is just the icing on the cake, here. And it's a bad tasting cake. To anyone on that board who's reading: when it comes to the prophetic, you've BLOWN IT. You will NOT be able to fix it without abandoning a practice that you clearly do not understand as well as you think you do. Don't believe me? LOOK AT THE FRUIT! I've seen the fruit. I ain't buying the seeds.

"The board's escalating criticism and focus on our marriage has become hurtful and intrusive." Umm, YA THINK?