Raf

JohnYouAre, I accept that you feel no need to prove the language you're producing by the power of Almighty God as indisputable proof of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ and His lordship in your life by subjecting your God-given ability to basic examination and verification, and I am prepared to shake hands and say go in peace. See, the way I see it, you have claimed that God has enabled you to, on demand, speak in a language you have never learned. I am willing to entertain that assertion because I think it speaks well of the power of God. In fact, I am willing to go a step further and PROVE you are right by recording your utterance and subjecting it to independent scrutiny that would resolve the issue without a hint of doubt, proving to skeptics the world over that this is not merely an article of faith for you, but a documented and irrefutable display of God's awesome power. You are not willing to take that extra step. Which tells me, JohnYouAre, that I clearly have more faith in your God than you do. Why do you suppose that is? (Hint: It's because we both know you're lying. This is the part where you admit it).

If I were to haul johniam into court on charges of speaking in tongues, he would be found not guilty for lack of evidence. If he were charged with THINKING he spoke in tongues, he'd be convicted. Self deception at work.

How convenient!

I wonder if the poll results would be different if those who answered yes were required to identify the language that they produced by speaking in tongues. Nah.

My Fair Lady

I wholly agree with you, Geisha. In fact, I said as much when I first mentioned the tongues of angels copout on this thread.

Tell me about the school and the committee.

Clue: first is a horror movie with a longer than average name. The second is a Spike Lee joint.

"Devil's" advocate: Steve, do you agree that, in most cases, a genuine example of speaking in tongues should be more likely to produce an earthly language than a heavenly? I mean, the alternative would be either everyone speaking the same heavenly language (which should be fairly easy for a linguist to detect, even if the language itself cannot be recognized/identified) or that there are scores, nay hundreds, of heavenly languages (giving rise to the question, WTF? I mean, why?).

Steve disagrees with me. He has not attacked me. He is approaching this subject with integrity. Hope I've been clear on THAT.

If I'm right: A madman stalks a group of teenagers harboring what they thought was a tragic secret about a shared experience from July and August of 1977.

No question, Waysider. I said it before and I'll say it again: they can attack me, criticize me, accuse me of working for ol' splitfoot, sic the ghost of VP Wierwille on me... You know what they can't do? Speak in tongues. At least, they can't prove it. They can't identify the language. Because somehow God's idea of irrefutable proof is synonymous with the inability to verify it. How do you know that you know that you know if you can't prove it?

Match Game of Thrones

I put the poll up to invite people to engage in self-reflection and, perhaps, confession. It doesn't shock me at all that people would be eager to validate their practice by clicking "it's real and it works like I've been doing it for years!" You know what it would impress me? Identify the language you're producing. Yeah, yeah, I know. Tongues of angels.

Yes, I do find some amusement in the rather obvious fact that people who deluded themselves years ago continue to delude themselves today. By the way, John, you can huff and puff all you want. That doesn't make it a language.

Yes! And kudos to you for remembering Dance Fever!

More than two days having passed: All in the Family Affair Next clue: In this talent competition, the contestants compete to see who can perform hip-hop, jazz, ballet and modern routines so effectively that they reach a body temperature of 101 degrees.

Chockfull, as I said to Steve, we can respectfully recognize that we have reached different conclusions and, although my position makes a judgment about yours, I can certainly choose not to press the issue and bid you peace in your prayer life and your relationship with God. Ultimately, my accusation is meaningless and should have no bearing on your relationship with God. Steve has chosen to engage me on a respectful level, and we're having a respectful dialogue about it that could, in the long run, prove quite interesting and instructive to both of us. As such, I'm not going to "leave him alone" unless he asks me to stop, at which point I'll shake his hand, as it were, and thank him for carrying it as far as he was willing. But certain others are insistent on my "proving" my point and willing to put me in league with the father of lies for the audacity of my position. If there is any disrespect in my tone, please be assured it is directed at such an argument, and not at you. Incidentally, I do not blame anyone who wishes to take me on with hostility. After all, I am calling them liars (although, to be fair, I'm not impugning their honesty or integrity because I believe they are lying to themselves first -- any lie that emanates from that is well intentioned. They think they are defending God Himself, and I cannot fault them for their zeal, misplaced though I think it may be). In other words, stick around and contribute to the dialogue if you'd like, but a word of caution: you may not like. :)

Is it necessary? Is it beneficial? Does it help? All valid questions worth exploring. Are you really doing it or are you faking it to fit in? Because if your answer to that question is "I'm faking it," the answer to your earlier questions don't much matter to your experience. There would have to be some other explanation to the benefits or comfort you experienced. Objectively, if it is true but you faked it, it would still have every benefit ascribed to it by scripture. It would just mean that you haven't tapped into it. Say I benefit from loving God and I can benefit from speaking in tongues. I claim to speak in tongues, but deep down, I know (or maybe I don't know: I've fooled myself) that I'm faking it. But I can see the benefit! Does the benefit prove I spoke in tongues? No. It may prove that I merely love God, and that is where the benefit came from. Johniam is convinced that he personally receives benefits of exhortation and comfort when people practice TIP in his presence. He concludes it MUST be genuine. I conclude that Johniam attends these meetings primed to hear something that will comfort his heart. I practice TIP with the heartfelt motive of saying something that will comfort the hearts of those present. AND THE RESULT SHOCKS YOU? Come on! I could fake it with the best of them. I know because I did.

Good question, Geisha! But you would have to measure an admitted faker to know that. My thought is, if I faked gibberish, I DON'T need to pre-think the actual sounds any more than an alleged tongues-speaker would. Example: If I INTENDED to say "Lo shanta kali fon senti porishi sunta kay ronta fello sonasta," then yes, you would pick up that I was repeating something I memorized because it would work the same as language and normal thinking. If, however, I did not pre-think anything and just spouted the first sound that came to mind, then no, it would be indistinguishable from what we saw with the tongues speakers. Laleo. They're speaking without regard to the sounds that are coming out of their mouths, in both cases. So I would expect the readings to be the same. Here's another experiment they could try: Record the brain activity of someone who admittedly is speaking platitudes they made up on the spot ("I am God, and I love you. I always have and always will. Be strong in my Word and have faith in Me always, and I will never forsake you"). Compare the brain activity of someone doing THAT with the brain activity of someone bringing forth a word of prophecy. Does anyone doubt what the outcome would be? Anyone? Interesting thing about that video: the notion that the believers involved produced a known language was NOT EVEN ALLEGED. No one claimed to be producing an identifiable language. This, of course, flies in the face of Acts, doesn't it? When they spoke in tongues, people around them said, "Hey! They're speaking my language!" So the guys and gals on that video, shucks, they must all be speaking heavenly languages. Which brings me back to, how many languages do they have in heaven? Do the angels under Michael's dominion speak Michaelese, while the angels under Gabriel's command speak Gabrielese? Are there more than two heavenly languages? How many? If this were the doctrinal thread, this is the part where I'd ask for chapters and verses. But it's not the doctrinal thread, so I won't go there. Then again, these people might be speaking archaic languages, once known to man but now lost to history. There's always that. ALL OF THEM? God gives us irrefutable proof that's indistinguishable from made up gibberish? (By the way, Johniam, that's how you spell "gibberish." In English, anyway. You're welcome). How is that irrefutable proof of anything?

Listened to and watched the report on the study of speaking in tongues, and the study appears to contain a fundamental, fatal flaw. The researcher compared the brain of someone speaking in tongues to the same person praying with the understanding. What's missing? The brain of someone deliberately faking it. I'd bet a week's salary it would be indistinguishable from a tongues speaker.

Yes, I'm exaggerating. I know most of you are not accusing me of bullying

Here's something I didn't think of until this morning. One side of this debate has claimed that they have, in a tangible and indisputable way, tapped into the power of Almighty God, creator of heaven and earth, He who could end my very existence with but a thought, He who parted the Red Sea, leveled the walls of Jericho, stopped the rotation of the earth so that the sun could stand still long enough for a battle to be won... He who raised the dead, raised His Son to eternal life, who is intent on establishing His Almighty and Everlasting kingdom on earth for all time! You have tapped into that awesome and infinite power! That's the side accusing ME of bullying. I want you to think about that.

Spanish version of pig Latin... Did that sumgun just pull the race card on me? Seriously?

I did the same thing you do, John. I babbled, trying to make it sound like a convincing language. Then I made up some platitude that sounded like what I thought God would say if He were in the room. You know darned well how I faked it, because you do it all the time.