Raf

I wasn't trying to read into anything. I was simply stating as a counterpoint that you need not be an atheist to reach the conclusion that what we did was/is not what they did in Acts and the early church. I'm not disputing your observation. It has not escaped my observation that an atheist would (naturally) come to the same conclusion. The position rises or falls on its merits, not on the beliefs of the people espousing it. "Someone praying to God to SIT, receiving no answer, and making up free vocalization to appease themselves" is also consistent with the position of one who believes that which is being prayed for is "not available," to borrow a term from Wierwille. It is consistent with the opinion of one who believes the "gift" "died with the apostles." It is consistent with one who believes simply that what is being practiced is not what is described in the Bible, and therefore a further search for Biblical truth is warranted. Etc.

Correct. The name of the first show/movie has to be at least two words. The name of the second show/movie has to be at least two words. The last word of the first show should be the same as the first word of the second (minus articles like "A" or "The"). I'm calling that the linking word (for reasons I hope are obvious).

On the contrary, I think we have addressed this, and it is the heart of this entire thread. We've addressed that there's no way for me to prove my position. I hold it, you [chockfull, Steve and others] dispute it, and we've agreed to respectfully disagree. To me, it's more logically reasonable that what we all experienced was mere free vocalization that we attributed to God. Not that what we manifested was "another spirit." I have to agree with you there. The Biblical logic is clear: if you ask God for a fish, He's not going to give you a scorpion. I'm with you on that. But if you ask God for a fish, and upon not receiving a fish, you make yourself a bowl of chili, that's neither God nor another spirit. It's just you. I contend that if what we experienced is what is described in the Bible, then the results of what we experienced should be the results described by the Bible. I see no reason to believe that has taken place. We respectfully disagree, and I'm good with that. You don't need to be atheist to admit you faked it. You just need to be honest (if you faked it: If you didn't this is not addressed to you).

My guess was way off. Ignore it.

Looked it up. I was waaaay off.

My guess: To Tell the Truth or Consequences

I have a guess. Does the linking word start with a T?

Wow. Possibly the best post ever.

Let him play!

Correct, excy. I didn't think to add an "I don't know/I'm not sure" category. In hindsight, that was very foolish of me. However, the poll is meaningless. ;)

Another vote came in. It seems now those who admit "faking it" now outnumber those who hold to TWI's version of SIT. Of course, the poll IS meaningless, but seeing as prior results subjected me to a little bit of "Rock!" throwing, I thought I'd bring it up. Sudo! Hey, look everyone! Sudo's here! Happy birthday (belated) old man!

Really? This isn't an easy one? Anyone? At the height of a very tense confrontation, Darth Vader reveals to Marty McFly that Doc Brown never told him the truth about his father. Darth Vader is George McFly!

still no. :)

Yep

How many "Get this soldier home to his mother" quotes do I need to post?

Sorry: I thought the right thing. Night of the Living Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid. Bringing it to the top of a new page. At least in my settings.

Darth Vader reveals that he is really George McFly

Another dead link. :) The Walking Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid

Quick recap for those just joining us: I've agreed not to use the terms "lying" or "faked" or variations of them in favor of "free vocalization," which in context has no religious or supernatural connotation. A person engaging in free vocalization is deliberately producing sounds and, consciously or subconsciously, seeking to produce sounds that emerge as a language. I believe that Wierwille deliberately led us into free vocalization and called it "speaking in tongues," and that we who perpetuated this teaching did so of a pure heart and conscience, not meaning to deceive or to lead anyone else into a deception (but doing so nonetheless). I believe that this same process of free vocalization marks most if not all of what the modern Christian world refers to as "speaking in tongues." This blanket statement, admittedly, cannot be proved, but it CAN be disproved by anyone who speaks in tongues and produces a verifiable language. I do not ask anyone to agree with me, but I do call on you to search your heart and be willing to admit the truth, as Goey, geisha and a couple of others have done. It doesn't make you less of a Christian to tell the truth: it makes you more of one. I am not judging the Biblical experience of speaking in tongues and I understand that my beliefs raise some serious doctrinal questions. There are two threads exploring some of those questions in the doctrinal section, along with a third thread that provides links to some outside reading material. If you disagree with me, I'm fine with that. I stand by my position, but I will not impose it on you anymore than you will impose yours on me. Did I miss anything important?

Johniam, my son was recently diagnosed with ASD. Your dedication to your children just raised you like a billion notches in my book. We may not agree on much, but you have my profound respect. Keep up the fight.

Care to give it a try, Human?

"Hell, these guys deserve to go home as much as I do. They've fought just as hard." "Is that what I'm supposed to tell your mother when she gets another folded American flag?" "You can tell her that when you found me, I was with the only brothers I had left. And that there was no way I was deserting them. I think she'd understand that."

Goey, I would bet that you speak for many, many more people than the poll results would indicate. Took a lot of courage and integrity for you to share that.

Goey? Is it really you?

Actually, it appears Wierwille was all over the map on this one: http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_cntradef.htm