Raf

Sorry: I thought the right thing. Night of the Living Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid. Bringing it to the top of a new page. At least in my settings.

Darth Vader reveals that he is really George McFly

Another dead link. :) The Walking Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid

Quick recap for those just joining us: I've agreed not to use the terms "lying" or "faked" or variations of them in favor of "free vocalization," which in context has no religious or supernatural connotation. A person engaging in free vocalization is deliberately producing sounds and, consciously or subconsciously, seeking to produce sounds that emerge as a language. I believe that Wierwille deliberately led us into free vocalization and called it "speaking in tongues," and that we who perpetuated this teaching did so of a pure heart and conscience, not meaning to deceive or to lead anyone else into a deception (but doing so nonetheless). I believe that this same process of free vocalization marks most if not all of what the modern Christian world refers to as "speaking in tongues." This blanket statement, admittedly, cannot be proved, but it CAN be disproved by anyone who speaks in tongues and produces a verifiable language. I do not ask anyone to agree with me, but I do call on you to search your heart and be willing to admit the truth, as Goey, geisha and a couple of others have done. It doesn't make you less of a Christian to tell the truth: it makes you more of one. I am not judging the Biblical experience of speaking in tongues and I understand that my beliefs raise some serious doctrinal questions. There are two threads exploring some of those questions in the doctrinal section, along with a third thread that provides links to some outside reading material. If you disagree with me, I'm fine with that. I stand by my position, but I will not impose it on you anymore than you will impose yours on me. Did I miss anything important?

Johniam, my son was recently diagnosed with ASD. Your dedication to your children just raised you like a billion notches in my book. We may not agree on much, but you have my profound respect. Keep up the fight.

Care to give it a try, Human?

"Hell, these guys deserve to go home as much as I do. They've fought just as hard." "Is that what I'm supposed to tell your mother when she gets another folded American flag?" "You can tell her that when you found me, I was with the only brothers I had left. And that there was no way I was deserting them. I think she'd understand that."

Goey, I would bet that you speak for many, many more people than the poll results would indicate. Took a lot of courage and integrity for you to share that.

Goey? Is it really you?

Actually, it appears Wierwille was all over the map on this one: http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_cntradef.htm

Steve, I think you got allos and heteros backward. At least partly. Allos was another of the same kind and another when more than two are involved. Heteros was another of a different kind or when only two are involved.

You're all in the right genre. Pretty sure you're all in the wrong decade. It's recent to us, but an old movie to anyone who just got a drivers license. Looking again: yes, all the guesses so far have been in the wrong decade.

"You wanna explain the math of this to me? I mean, where's the sense of riskin' the lives of the eight of us to save one guy?" "Twenty degrees. Anybody wanna answer that?" "Reiben, think about the poor bastard's mother." "Hey, Doc, I got a mother, all right? I mean, you got a mother. Sarge's got a mother. I mean, ...., I bet even the captain's got a mother. Well, maybe not the captain, but the rest of us got mothers."

Nope

I don't think it's off topic at all, Twinky. It seems like your question is perfectly aligned with this thread. Dividing to every man severally as he wills... Does "he" refer to the man, or to the Spirit? Makes all the difference, doesn't it? I don't know the correct grammatical answer. I know what we were taught (it's the man) and I know the alternative view (it's the Spirit), but I am unqualified to judge which answer is correct. Wierwille's definitions of heteros and allos were inconsistent and often ridiculous. I believe he said heteros was "another when only two are involved" and allos was "another when more than two may be involved." He never got around to explaining why the word "other" in "turn the other cheek" was allos. Maybe Jesus was counting butt cheeks to bring the number of cheeks on a human being from two to four? Another distinction between the terms is that allos is another of the same kind, while heteros is another of a different kind. When I was reviewing usages of the word, these definitions struck me as more Biblically consistent. But my review was far, far from exhaustive. If you were to show me why that distinction is incorrect, my confidence would not be shaken (because it's so low to begin with). By the way, yes, I am aware that Wierwille's heteros/allos distinction was borrowed from Bullinger (I won't say plagiarized, because that's unfair. Wierwille's articulation may have been plagiarized, but accepting the definitions and applying them are fair game). In any event, I am dismissive of the blatant inaccuracy, not the source.

You're on the right track, but wrong train. The first movie has an 8 word title and starred Andy Garcia. The second is three words and starred Susan Sarandon, but not as the title character. Your post used the term "in Denver." That exact term is in one of the titles.

Okay, let's get the bucket list out: Catch a Colorado Rockies baseball game, maybe a Broncos football game, maybe check out the Historic Governors Museum... Hopefully I'm allowed to do all this while awaiting execution...

Geisha posted this one in the I Corinthians thread. I thought it would be worth putting up here. http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/articles/giftoftongues.html

I think this game is... not catching on. ;) My Fair Lady and the Tramp

Nope.

"What I mean by that, sir, is if you was to put me and this here sniper rifle anywhere up to and including one mile from Adolf Hitler... with a clean line of sight... Pack your bags, fellas. War's over. Amen."

Lisa Kudrow Romy and Michelle's High School Reunion Mira Sorvino

The integrity of God's word is unaffected by my willingness to lie for it. My belief casts no judgment on the integrity of the Bible or its authorship by Paul, Moses, Luke or God. It is about the integrity of Wierwille's interpretation and instruction, which is fair game. If questioning a teacher's doctrine and methods is not fair game, Wierwille would have had no career. Except maybe as a basketball player.

"Doctor" knew they would criticize the manifestations because he knew he was faking it and teaching us to do likewise. It doesn't take a prophet to make that prediction. I knew my position would be greeted with defensiveness and recitation of PFAL buzzwords and propaganda. That wasn't God giving me a vision of the future. It's common sense. Continuing to engage in free vocalization as part of your prayer life is between you and God. It's not what's described in Acts and Corinthians. We know this because it is producing something else. Claiming the benefit of SIT while faking it is like paying for a pack of gum with a counterfeit $100 bill and looking forward to chewing it and pocketing the $99 change you'll get back from the cashier. You go ahead and do that. None of my business.

No, the congregation can look at it and say "this is nuts," and walk away. The child cannot. The adults responsible for this poor kid's maturity and personal growth are morphing him into a parody of what they want him to be. They should be ashamed of themselves. And if this makes me judgmental, so be it. Getting a little tired of suspending good sense for fear of violating some ridiculous rule against exercising sound judgment anyway.