Trefor Heywood

Well mj you won't know what the level of gay divorces would be against the level of heterosexual ones until there are gay marriages. Yes I can perfectly understand the word freedom and it is not in the sense of some using their freedom to deny freedom to others. Freesdom of speech is a fine concept providing all are free to speak. You have freedom of religion and you have freedom of no religion. As to the bible being !quite clear" I think I am going to have to marshall my material on how clear it actually is. It is about time some shibboleths were exposed as wanting. The people seem to have got very bad regarding their voting record given the turnouts. People cite the voting in California, Hawaii and Alaska. They may not have noticed the massive financial contributions that were made by churches hiding under their tax exempt status, to the "no" campaigns. These included the Catholic and Mormon churches. That wasn't God speaking, it was money. Organised religion has a lot of it. Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

mj412: The guy who said this and his allies play God all the time. God agrees with everything they say, believe and do. They have his ear and he has theirs. But in SF these marriage licences are CIVIL ones, they do not seek the blessing of religion or of a deity. And many homosexual people (including women) want to be normal. They want the same quality of life, and respect for their relationships as anybody else. If marriage licences were not issue to heterosexuals but were to homosexuals that would then be a special right and heterosexuals would be beating at the doors demanding equal rights, but at the moment that special right is given without question to heterosexuals so it is not gays demanding special rights at all. Where does it erode these? It might erode your own interpretation but "it ain't necessarily so." Well if you think the divorce courts ALREADY affect the tax system thent he happy heterosexual families need to look at their own backyard - the level of heterosexual divorce is certainly something you cannot blame gays for! Millions of gays people lead productive lives and strive to do what they can too. As to the "tad dramatic" citing some extreme examples well funnily enough I have seen enough extreme examples cited regarding gay people in this thread. :D--> Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

sorry Jonny - a couple more quotes! : Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

colleen: And peace to you Colleen In that sort of situation I should imagine that saving a$$ as opposed to patting it would say a lot. :D--> And mj - the current policy is no "no homosexuals" but "don't ask, don't tell." This means that homosexuals don't have to lie because they are not asked in the first place. As long as they conduct themselves properly on base that is sufficient. Another thought has struck me. In Iraq there are openly gay British soldiers working together with GIs who know this. Still no major problems! Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

mj412: Is your first language English? Sometimes I find your phraseology and vocabulary difficult to understand - that is in no way a personal attack. Just trying to understand. I wonder if that is totally correct. Clinton appeared to listen far more to the objections of his military top brass. However, no country which has admitted openly gay forces personnel has experienced the dire results predicted. Now if humananity has similar experiences in a given situation then it would seem to indicate that the arguments, however reasoned they may sound, could be wrong. The same arguments were made by the UK military top brass also and none of them actually proved to be a problem at all. The same sort of arguments were also made why women should not serve upon an equal basis in the military. And gays are "the people" also, not just those whom you think should be. And whatever you think of me mj I do not hate you. I may hate and disagree with what you say and my "loud fingers" will also give as good as they get but life is too short to spend time hating. Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

Jonny: What private topics? I am an ignoramus in that area... Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

mj412: What is patently clear is that you have YOUR version about what is America is. But the intolerance for those who have their own vision is manifest. You claim not to hate homosexuals, maybe so and maybe not. But your hatred of homosexuality is so rabid as to defy description. It is hardly surprising that people interpret that as homophobia and are put off by your vision of America. and your version of God. In the armed forces what does it matter if a soldier is gay or not if they observe proper behavioural conventions on base? You heard of Barry Goldwater? He said something like "On the front line I don't care if a soldier is gay or not, I am only concerned that he can shoot straight." Heroes are individuals, regardless of their sexuality. Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

Tom Strange: Of course I cut and pasted - what do you think I am? A masochist? :D--> Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

rascal: I think I have to agree and it's not because of what Pat Robertson said about Tinky Winky! :D--> Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

dmiller: I just find it so amazing that you claim its was ok to flee a tyranny just so that another one could be set up. One version of God and what was OK for another. It is one thing to trust in God and entirely another to force what you believe comes from that trust down the throats of others. What you choose to choke upon does not give you the right to impose that upon others. Majority rule can in itself be a tyranny and it looks like I am doing better as a subject in this regard. Better kick out all the non-believers according to that logic. And next time you get a president with a true majority let me know... :D--> I am sorry jonny if you thought it was too much at once. I was away at the weekend and had to catch up with my emails. It was also an attempt to bring people up to speed upon the latest developments and, yes, they carry information from what both sides of the debate are saying. mj412: This allegation is utter nonesense. Furthermore you insult the memory of all those gay Americans who have fought and died in the service of their country, often in the teeth of opposition and witch hunts. Other countries such as mine joined America in the liberation of other countries amd we now allow openly gay people in our armed forces and it did not prove the morale and efficiency disaster that many claimed it would be. It might even surprise you to know that I supported this. There are homosexuals in your armed forces - they are just not allowed to be open about it. As to 9/11 do you think that homosexuals were jumping up and down and congratulating Al Quada? And are you saying that you cannot love your country is you are not in THE MAJORITY? Sheesh - me emotional? Look in a mirror... Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

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Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

From "Mark" in the "matthewshepperd" yahoo group. Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

Thought I should post a few viewpoints I have found from those who are both pro gay marriage and American.... Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

Naturally I am pleased that some Americans can! :D--> None of them appeared on The Weakest Link USA ! Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

Long Gone: I do not accept that the criticism you have made of my posts is valid. When I said "same old stuff" it is because the same aruments have been rehearsed over and over upon this thread. You could equally claim that the refutations I have made of them is "the same old stuff" too. I equally have tried to make reasoned arugments. I have never equated the gay rights issue with slavery - I have simply pointed out that slavery was another one of those issues which took a long time to resolve, with Americans on both sides of the issue who were equally sure of their theological and political correctness. I have not criticised your system of Government, I have made observations of how it holds certain issues in tension and how it can be used to perpetuate certain problems. That is far from unique to the USA, at least you have a written Constitution and are citizens and not subjects. It may surprise you to know but in me the USA has a friend. Something you cannot even assume from some of your fellow citizens. I have yet to meet an American who can name all 50 State Capitals. I can. Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

A good point mstar1 - when people don't like it then it is a national issue and yet when people do like it it a state's rights issue. Having your nose closer to the ground than many of us you may well be better enfranchised to keep some people the the original topic of the thread. Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

The posts about children I will leave to those who want to argue about them. I don't believe that is the prime issue regarding same sex marriage as many partners would be couples rather than families, The argument about money I find to be cynical, whereas money may be involved, it is still the issues of legal recognitions and protections. I have seen enough heterosexual marriages that are all about money and enough where the bearing and raising of children was not the intent. I could argue civil fairness until I am blue in the face but verily it falleth upon deaf ears. It is such a pity that heterosexual and religious majority rule feels it necessary to alienate and discriminate against a section of its own citizens. Sometimes I am really glad I am not an American. Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

Long Gone: I was not aware that GS was the exclusive preserve of Americans or that non-American people were not allowed to make comments. Well tough s**t. No passports or visas are required here to be able to debate what is an important topic for all my gay brothers and sisters who are Americans. If you want to comment on our system you can do so, it's no skin off my nose. Thanks no doubt to TWI I have long been interested in America and things American. We no doubt get much more news over here about what is happening over there than the other way around. No doubt I should tell Tony Blair to immediately withdraw all co-operation and support to the USA because you wish to revert to being isolationist? That post was just so childish - grow up. Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

All I have seen with posts from groucho, laleo and long gone is the same old rehash of stuff. Similar arguments regarding other problems within US society have been made in the past about what should not be imposed as an edict. Is there such a major difference between toleration and acceptance? Toleration is the acceptance of the fact that something exists and putting up with that fact, irrespective of whether one agrees or not. Toleration requires that arrangements need to be made to address the legitimate aspirations of a group of people to address a long standing problem. There is nothing sacred about a civil marriage per se and this is what has been the topic of discussion. I have declared previously that I have no major interest in what you call it, a rose by any other name would smell as sweet. If a couple can be united in a civil and legal arrangement if they choose to call it marriage it does not bind anybody else to do so. Just as heterosexual marriage does not bind the couple to have children simply because they can. I do not need to point out how casually heterosexual marriage is treated by some people but perhaps I need to reiterate how seriously gay people wish to take gay marriage or whatever terminology people wish to use. The editorials that I posted were not designed to offend but to inform. I am happy to indicate in future those points that I might disagree with but not to quote the entire article would lead to charges of my being selective. I do not see any politicians providing alternative proposals. I am glad that some people here are prepared to consider them. That is progress of a kind. Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

The last paragraph is not completely correct. In addition, Norway, Sweden and Denmark also allow marriage as a specific term and various other countries allow civil registrations akin to marriage.