Trefor Heywood

An interim reply to def: Firstly when I type www.narth.org it takes me to register.com and states the domain has been registered but does not take me to the home page. Therefore your first article (which mentions no names anyway) does not appear under the url you cited. Secondly the pdf file you cite requires more checking and research. Firstly that it is genuine (snopes has nothing on it) and secondly that the information it provides is accurate. Even if the individuals cited in the document exist, the "evidence" is marshalled to attack every decent gay person on this planet as supporting and approving what is written. This is not only insulting but untrue. It is, however phrased, very much along the lines of all homosexuals should be tarred with the same paedophilia brush. Just like the Nazis used the Protocols of the Elders of Zion to tar all the Jews with international conspiracy. It does not represent my views nor the views of any gay people that I know or correspond with. Have you referred this document to the FBI? If genuine I am sure that they would be interested. If genuine, I am sure that the religious right would seize upon it with gusto but they appear to be more upset with adult matters (the reality anyway) regarding gay marriage. I once, or maybe several times, referred to my own prison experiences when I worked in a prison that contained a high number of convicted paedophiles. Heterosexual paedophilia was far more represented than homosexual paedophilia. Just as you don't tar all heterosexuals as having a paedophile agenda nor should you for all homosexuals. As I said this is an interim reply. Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

The good memories were always the people and the love and sharing and fellowship I had with them. I was reminded of a good memory today when hearing about the sad death of Kaveh Kamyar and tears come to my eyes. I never cried about VPW nor all the evil that grew around him. Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

And no doubt you can give the names and university/colleges of these "some" academics def? Surely they should be reported to their Deans and Faculties immediately! Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

dmiller: When you talk of rights and your understanding of them you must remember that everybody has the right to be wrong. What you believe to be wrong and what you believe that God thinks is wrong should not be allowed to effect the beliefs and choices of those who do not believe or agree with you. It's part of free will. It's also part for freedom. Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

Interestingly enough in 1900 only four states had extentended the franchise to both sexes - Wyoming, Idaho, Colorado and Utah. The other states, like other countries, found all kinds of reasons why they shouldn't be allowed it. There were no doubt many who thought the status quo was just fine then. Just as there are some that think it is now. Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

Zix: The marriage option issue is a big splitting of legal hairs. You don't think its discrimination because all may marry as long as it's a person of the opposite sex. You have a problem in that there is discrimination against those who wish to marry a person of the same sex. There are various reasons why people don't avail themselves of the available option. You cite Catholic priests and nuns, but it is their religion, not the state that prevents them from marrying. The state comes up with various allowances and prohibitions, some based upon religious sensibilities and some not. One can always find "if you allow this then why not this" arguments. But the state allows nobody to marry their sibling nor recognises polygamous marriages. Yet the state will only take action on polygamy where more than one civilly recognised mariage at one time has been contracted. The polygamists of Utah who have been religiously but not civilly married are not proceeded against unless there is another legal reason involved - such as bride being under age for sex etc. In the case of incest or legal polygamy the discrimination is equal. It is not equal where a couple who are not related or under age may marry when they are of opposite sex and another couple who are not related or under age may not because they are of the same sex. Nor would such an allowance require that two people who are of the same sex be gay, any heterosexual who wished to enter into such a marriage would be just as entitled to marry a member of the same sex as gay people are entitled to marry a person of the opposite sex. There is no compunction for them to do so. Priests and nuns would still be as disallowed by their religion as they are now. Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

Yes Catcup there is that wonderful choice regarding religion, there is over here also. When it comes to citizenship matters it is a different ballgame. Not many are in a position to pick and choose which country they can investigate as being most condusive for them and move there. The secular setup has to consider the legitimate needs and desires of all its citizens, including minorities. Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

Thanks Garth! By Jove, I think I've got it! Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

Ok I give up! How do you make the above URL work properly? Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

Oops! Got the number wrong it's over 1,000 though! http://www.hrc.org/PrinterTemplate.cfm?Sec...tentDisplay.cfm Wonder where one can get a full list of them though...! Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!" [This message was edited by Trefor Heywood on March 09, 2004 at 18:24.] [This message was edited by Trefor Heywood on March 10, 2004 at 6:29.] [This message was edited by Trefor Heywood on March 10, 2004 at 6:31.] [This message was edited by Trefor Heywood on March 10, 2004 at 6:32.] [This message was edited by Trefor Heywood on March 10, 2004 at 6:35.]

oops! Thanks Zix for pointing out my typo! This has now been corrected. You can now disagree with it properly! :D--> Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

I have read that there are somthing like 1,600 legal benefits available to married couples that are not available to unmarried couples. I don't know if that is true or not, but if it is that's a pretty impressive number. I will see if I can find out more. Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!" [This message was edited by Trefor Heywood on March 09, 2004 at 16:04.]

It's clear that def wants a world where you can discriminate any way you want provided it is about sexual orientation. I have denounced NAMBLA on many different occasions but have never had any credit for it, it seems to fall upon deaf ears. I get bombarded with much more stuff about impersonal heterosexual sex. Heterosexual men go to bars to pick up chicks who are parading around naked or semi naked, inviting them to stuff their panties with cash. Many people live together for years, both gay and straight but don't want to get married or are not allowed to get married. Yes always pick the extreme examples and try to apply them to a whole class of people - trouble is that doesn't wash because it creates a straw man. In an open and accepting society people would not have to be hidden or ghettoised, forced into clandestine arrangements etc. Hell they could even lead conservative lives! Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

Wacky: The are two kind of heterosexuals too! The gays seeking marriage are the once from your second type of experience. Just as the people who abuse their heterosexuality are not made a reason for denying marriage to those who want it, neither should the former type of gays (I have not encountered the same "shocking" types over here) be made a reason to deny the latter type of gays their rights. Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

Mstar: A difficult question to answer. I should imagine if it became a question of some of the large church groupings doing it it might well come about because politicians will then see the votes in it. But it is most likely that those churches which are hierarchically structured and do not allow participation and voting in decisions at all levels (Catholic, LDS etc) are not going to change their views and practices in this area in a hurry. The state has no right to make them do so, but nor do they have the right to dictate to the state how its deals with the civil recognition of marriage. Even speaking in terms of heterosexual marriage there is already a distinction between what churches might call Holy Matrimony and what the state calls Civil Marriage. Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

It was only OK for the TWI leadership rascal because they were MOGs and had a direct line to God! For everyone else it was five senses stuff! Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

Mandii Except of course righteous anger - that was OK as TWI frequently proved. Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

I agree Pirate - altough I am sure that technically it will outshine the earlier two versions. But there is some legal stuff regarding different ownership and distribution rights re The Hobbit. Guess PJ wanted to keep occupied in the meantime. Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

I clearly recall that God created in the sperm that fertilised Mary's egg and that it had "only dominant characteristics." Brigham Young, the second leader of the Mormon church taught the doctrine that God had sex with Mary, but Mormons believe that God has a body. VPW clearly taught that God is spirit so this would have made it more difficult :D--> Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

Oakspear: The Book of Helaman is easy! It's about many of the good guys (the Nephites) becoming bad guys and many of the bad guys (the Lamanites) becoming good guys. Now Heretics of Dune is a little harder going! :D--> Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

I wonder how many times one has to read the old chestnuts about paedophiles or animals. Neither or them are adult consensual human situations. According to Sir Robert Peel's Tamworth Manifesto, Conservative does not mean reactionary - ie that nothing should ever change. In fact the Conservative party over here has finally realised that point and has become friendly and proactive towards gays. Stability and commitment are in fact basic Conservative values. No country that has enacted gay marriage laws has forced religions to accept or perform marriages. Homosexual scoutmasters over here are accepted, there is no presumption that they will abuse their position. Paedophilia flourishes most in conditions of secrecy, not of openness. I wonder how many gay scouts have been affected by the US attitude. Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

I must have been mad - I didn't even keep the books! Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

I have not kept copies of ANY of my Way Magazines... Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

I am starting to think that the question is a bit of a misnomer. The dead are by definition, dead in the physical sense. The question is whether or not they are conscious spiritual entities at this time or not. Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"

I used to be a teenage werewolf But I'm all right naaaawwwooooo! :D--> Trefor Heywood "Cymru Am Byth!"