Trefor Heywood

How do you kill an institution when it is so popular? Those that damage it are those who either do not believe in it in the first place or treat it casually (serial monogamy). The numbers involved bear witness to its continued vigour and strength in the human psyche. Bill and Fred or Mary and Jane getting married in Massachusetts does not damage a strong heterosexual marriage one iota. When a marriage dies it is due to the individuals within it. Remember also that marriage in this context is as a civil construct, not a theological one. Not dead at all - but rather very much alive and thriving.

I remember LCM saying at a WOW festival: "How can we be anti-semitic? There aren't any semites to be anti!" (the event was being picketed by Jewish groups at the time)

And in respect of who is really running TWI: "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!" :D-->

Just for the record - it all became legal today and is proving very popular. Even made the news over here!

Hardly a timely warning eagle given when thei thread first started... But very funny all the same! :D-->

Good grief - is it really a year since anyone posted anything on this thread? Thanks for the kind comment dougie - wonder if I know the person who was a WOW here in the UK?

Thanks to the influence of TWI we thought we had everything, that we had arrived so to speak - there was a catch all, cover all, formula for everything. We were, in some respects, like the Pharisees in the story of the man born blind in the gospel of John - we insisted on saying "we see." Now some of us can find inspiration and insight from other sources also. We are no longer limited to a book which has no originals extant, has many textual variations, has been tranlsated in many different ways and understood in many different ways and whose contents were decided by a council in the fourth century AD. Realising that has for me at least been a liberation and the quest for fuiller truth goes ever onward.

They still make Triumph motorcylces here dmiller but they are hard to get new and very expensive. Nortons alas are always second hand :(-->

The Mummy III Zix? Thought that was meant to be the film The Scorpion King...

Great offer! Thanks imbus! Will let you know!

Abigail - I am currently ploughing through the history of Prieurie de Sion in the book but I am sure some interesting stuff is to come - I would also like to read Spong when I can find a copy. It is good to read challenging stuff - it keeps us from some cosy self-delusion that we have arrived.

Your interpretation of the Sodom story has been challenged - not because it is some perverse attempt to "rationalise" but because it is not as you think and without it the "wrath of God" scenario has foundations of clay. I did not say the Bible had no keys to truth and godliness - just that it doesnt have everything - pearls can be made artifically too :D-->

Did your ? key stick Snoballer? :D--> When you analyse the so-called "proof texts" there isn't one which really says it isn't either. The Bible is at best neutral and has as litle answer for homosexuality as it has for nuclear physics. For centuries people believed that the Bible taught that the sun went around the Earth and that the World was flat and that God literally made things in seven days period. It might be hard to believe or stomach but the Bible does not have the answers to all the world's questions - TWI pretended it did but it was all a lie and a deception. I no longer believe that things are so simple in black and white.

I have found my copy and have started to plough slowly through it. Will summarise conclusions when I have finished it.

Some mistranslations there in the KJV - but it puts VP and LC out of the running doesn't it? Puts a helluvalot of people out of the running taken at literalist face value. That's why it's dangerous to vaunt one passage over others.

I apologise dmiller! In these days of equality I should of course have used the plural - rings :D-->

Daryl! Is that a proposal? --> When do we go to Tiffany's for the ring? ;)-->

Kirk did not have time to mourn every time he lost a relative (he lost a brother in the first series too) and of course it was important that he rescued Spock or he would have fallen to his death when mountain climbing in one of the later films (the Far Country I think) as Spock rescued him. But Kirk did seem to have spread himself about a bit, meeting ex girlfriend after ex girlfriend so maybe he had done some boldy going where other men may or may not have gone before! :D-->

Wy t'in siarad Cymraeg Snoballer? God's Word can only be forever where it is pure and unadulterated and is incapable of mistranslation and misinterpretation - this we know is not the case even from our own TWI experience. One "bible believer" can see things one way and another "bible believer" can see things an entirely different way and this is just as true of homosexuality as it is of the Trinity and a host of other areas where there is disagreement, yet the same God is supposed to be the author and you would expect him to be so concerned about the quality of his product that it should not be possible to disagree with how we understand it. The fact that literalism can so often be confounded does not seem to dismay the literalists - they have decided what the meaning is - it's plain to them and therefore it should be plain to all - no matter if it flies against the truth of people's experience of real life or of science or of the unfolding discoveries about what makes mankind tick. Please do not assume that people such as Imbus and myself have not researched and dug and weighed and considered things very carefully before reaching our conclusions. If they disagree with yours, that's our right. God is the only judge and I have a conscience that condemns me not. Diolch am neges t'in! :D-->

It won't be surprise that I don't buy them either. The argument for the state making one set of arrangements and religions making their own is a sound one - it allows civil rights and benefits to citizens without making religious judgments. A cultural change is happening no matter what religion wants to dictate - it has too often been a cruel and enslaving thing and not the path to true freedom.

I wonder if those of who left before LCM's concerned warning for our well being was issued could be called greasespots? But isn't it wonderful to note that his believing did not equal our receiving! :D-->

When somdebody shares their story that is exactly what it is. It should be treated with respect just as an MPs maiden speech to Parliament is.

Just when we all thought this thread was dormant it gets a shot of the tired old references to Sodom and Gomorrah. This has already been refuted in other places so I don't intend to go through it all again. It simply shows that the influence of Martindale is more deep seated than people realise.

I was spared the WAP thing too as it was introduced after I marked and avoided TWI. I cannot help wondering, however, if VPW would still have chosen Craigipoos as his successor had he known that he would procede to supercede PFAL. Somehow I doubt it.

Perhaps Harvey was like another Harvey - only visible to one person! :D-->