Trefor Heywood

Hmm - the ministry is stronger than ever because it has lost thousands of adherents and is fronted by a sychophantic nonentity without an original thought in her head. You have to admire their optimism but not their self-deception.

The Pay Pray and Obey scenario can be applied to quite a few organisations, not just TWI, although of course it fits it to a T!

I gather that JK Rowling originally intended the station to be Euston but Kings Cross is a better choice is it's somewhat older (Euston is 1960s) and a better setting therefore for a steam train.

An interesting thought wyteduv: We found power for abundant living despite TWI not because of it! :D-->

A subjective rather than an experiential knowing. And isn't it funny that God seems to say different things to different people?

Yes personality - and Rosalie hasn't got what it takes. I remember VPW talking about "the fading echoes of a few great names" (Billy Graham, Oral Roberts etc). He just didn't appreciate how much of it was down to him personally - the sincerity (cough) the air of conviction, the apprearance of mastery of his material. But it would all look and sound so dated now, people are more sophisticated and analytical and know what has happened since. They also know that there are counter arguments to many of his assumptions. It would be like trying to reanimate a corpse using embalming fluid and touch up paint.

Very true George - the thinking (and/or research) has been done. Pay Pray and Obey yes. But use your own mind? Feel free to disagree and discuss? Chaos! Anarchy! Questioning the Lord's Annointed! :D-->

Things happening invisibly is such a convenience as is things being changed because of prayer (when there was no demonstrable danger in the first place. No doubt somebody prayed the WMDs out of existence too! I am reminded of a passage in Brideshead Revisited when Rex Mottram is seeing Fr Mowbray to receive instruction about becoming a Catholic in order that he might marry Julia Flyte. Fr Mowbray asks him to think about the Pope looking out of his window and saying "it's going to rain today." Rex said that he was sure that it would rain as the Pope had said it. Fr Mowbray countered "but supposing it didn't rain - what then?" Rex replies: "It must be raining spiritually then, it's just that we are too sinful to see it!"

Everything with the exception of what I listed that I missed...

Yes, it's a lot to take in (but what Thesis isn't?). But it's an excellent and scholarly expose of Wierwille's logical flaws and assumptions and shows clearly he could not have been taught the Word as it had not been taught since the first century. I especially recommend it to Mike - might make him think again about PFAL!

Wordwolf - you neglected to give the name of that all-important station from which the Hogwarts Expresss departs - Kings Cross station in London! :D-->

An excellent example of the principle of cascading.... ;)-->

TWI change for the better? You cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear and if the foundations are unsound no amount of rebuilding the fabric will improve it.

Very true Shaz. They can say "trust us with the money, we will not have to account for how it is used but you know we will use it wisely." They will also claim that only they can receive full revelation and inspiration - they are God's chosen and how therefore could they lead people astray? Whether it's New Knoxville, or Rome, or Salt Lake City that is the case. The leadership is vested with a cloud of infalliblity and secrecy that the followers must not and should not question.

But how many religious group/churches are not hierarchichal in structure?

I miss some of the people in it that I knew at a local level. I miss Claudette singing Precious Lord. I most certainly do not miss the leadership.

We already have more members than TWI Raf :D--> Remember there is no "official" TWI membership.

Yes it's certainly true that a lot of people were prepared to judge TWI as a cult upon the one issue - denial of the Trinity. When I was WOW we met some christian people in Hull market place and we were getting on very well discussing the Bible etc. The next week we saw them again and they were very different in their attitude - they had found out that we did not believe in the Trinity and walked off calling us a Cult. They would have done that even if there was no other reason. Whereas the media wouldn't have worried too much about that aspect, for other churches it was indeed the keystone by which TWI was judged.

What appears to be evident is that no matter how wrong one has been in one's calculations that one's followers are still deluded enough to see something good coming out of it. One must have been somehow inspired anyway and worth following - one must have had special knowledge, have the right keys, the right missing scriptures, the right biblical mathematics, the right amount of charisma that is not guaranteed to those who succeed you, the right air of exclusivity. The right claim to knowledge of esoteric mysteries, the right sense that somehow one is more special than the vast majority of mankind. That out of the billions that have ever lived that your group is the only one who will get special treatment and privileges from the Almighty, and even then not necessarily all if they don't do this and that.

I remember getting a phone call at work from my worried mother who had seen a report on local TV in the north west of England (I was living in Bristol and didn't see it) about TWI. It had apparantly latched on to the holocaust denial theory and also the use of guns in Corpse training programmes. The Limb leader Robert Wilkinson had refused to be interviewed which added to her suspicions. I then knew nothing about the denial but I told her that the guns bit was specific to the USA and was training only, that not everyone in TWI had to carry a gun or be prepared to use it. That I would not be involved with something that had been presented as so extreme and potentially dangerous. The gun aspect was picked up in the national press with such headlines as "US gun cult moves in." Jewish groups picketed the European WOW Festival that year because of the holocaust denial and it was only then I heard of this aspect. Robert Wilkinson explained his refusal to be interviewed as the negative way the reporters had approached him. I guess we all tried to make light work of this incident at the time and as I showed no sign of becoming a gun toting assassin my mother never raised it again although she remained unhappy with my continued involvement. I remember listening to a tape about an attempted deprogramming from one of the sunday night services. It was clear that the emphasis was upon the immorality of deprogramming and that it was not done for altruistic motives but for money. This made me feel resentful towards the deprogrammers rather than TWI. If we were being so hated then we must be doing something right. I think that we had to learn by experience about the negative things about TWI. Anything we were told or anything we heard or read could be dismissed as propoganda and lies. They did not like what TWI believed and because they could not refute those beliefs biblically they could only resort to tactics like this. That some of the assertions made were demonstrably false only strengthened our resolve and commitment. I did not see any long term effects of the negative publicity over here. We were too small and insignificant to hold the attention of the media for too long and soon put it to the back of our minds.

If LCM got a job in a garage how long would it be before he started pi$$ing off all the customers?

To read a book containing his smartest sayings we would no doubt require an electron microscope. :D-->

I am sure if all his dumb saying were collected together that they would make a book.

I have to ask - what is this kool-aid stuff? And those lists of definitions are so right-on! :D-->

I have to ask - what is this kool-aid stuff? And those lists of definitions are so right-on! :D-->