Trefor Heywood

The very language used is both cheesy and sycophantic. The garden is so perfect and lovely and the BOD are so inspirational. Think of how Stalin was lauded and how Saddam Hussein was, great inspirational leaders and the saviours of their people. Anther historical figure too bu to avoid Baldwin's law being invoked I will not name him. Under them too there were certain things that had to be said, in a certain way and praise had to be heaped on with a trowel. I don't think I could read a whole issue of the Rag now without puking.

These days I just say that I respect their right to believe what they want and to repect my right not to want to discuss it. There are many groups that claim to be the truest but they cannot offer anything new which I have not heard before. If you start engaging them in doctrinal discussion you can never get rid of them fast! :D--> These days it tends just to be the JWs as the LDS missionaries are supposed to leave you alone when you have had your name removed from church records.

Just another quick thought: If Loy thought that homosexuality was the lowest thing you could do sexually then he must have had a higher opinion of bestiality. I will avoid references to Hamsters and Sellotape! ;)-->

Well if Loy was right, at least we know it wasn't "Adam and Steve." :D--> But when one is really determined to one can read all kinds of things in and the Bible has been used to support many prejudices. One wonders how VP could possibly have missed this in the "five steps Satan used to deceive Eve" which he used to get ad nauseum in Piffle? On wonder how none of the learned Jewish Rabbis who were responsible for the Talmud and the Midrash also failed to notice it. For Loy to ask people if they could see it too is like the Hans Christian Anserson's story The Emperor's New Clothes. The people were afraid to be seen as fools because they could not see the gorgeous apparel the swindler claimed. And a great song by Danny Kaye!

The land Jospeh Smith designated in Jackson County Mo for the Zion Temple is owned by an offshoot. The LDS would dearly love to obtain it and I understand have made several offers which have all been refused. But they have rebuilt the Nauvoo Illinois Temple which was destroyed by fire when the Mormons were driven out. I expect that there are plans already drawn up in Church HQ in SLC just in case they ever managed to obtain the land. There is a temple in Independance already but it belongs to what was known as the Reorganised Church (the smaller group who did not go with BY) alhough I believe that they have changed their titles recently. Interestingly Joseph Smith's legal wife, Emma, and all his direct descendants were involved with this church. Their Temple is open to all, as is the Kirtland Ohio Temple (the first built) which they are also the custodians of.

She probably knows the old adage: "It is better to be thought stupid than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." :D-->

I have read Romans 1 also George. This isn't the right thread to have a full scale discussion on the subject so I will merely observe that your statement is a non sequitur as many homosexuals are not idolators (which you imply should be automatic) who try to love and serve God as much as the anyone else and try to serve him and their fellow men. The Roman culture if the first century which Paul observed is different to that of the 21st century. Who today worships Jupiter or Mercury or Diana? Great to hear from Ted Farrel too! Would love CDs of the Joyful Noise songs also! :D-->

Welcome George and Hooner. Before you equate trinitarianism with idolatry George may I suggest you read some of the reasoned arguments both pro and con the trinity. And the same regarding homosexuality. And if you are looking for a dragon - we have one here in Wales - it's red! :D-->

Of course I am aware that some people have reached similar conclusions to Wierwille without his "assistance." But they still also face the same challenges with biblical texts to answer. Now in this area when you think that you have solved one thing you find there is something else that does not follow. I am completely for openness and charity in disagreement. Clearly if it was completely cut and dried from the bible with no possible misunderstanding of the position then we would not be seeing discussions like this. But it would be interesting to see who were trinitarians before their encounter with TWI and who have returned to that viewpoint since TWI. I am such a one but the difference is that there was in intolerance before and during for the other point of view that I no longer have. It's almost an academic excercise now to weigh points made upon their merits. All I can say is that in TWI God became distant because the Father was only some far off unreachable spirit and the Son was replaced by the written word. It helps me to think more in trinitarian forms. We are looking through a dark glass at best, the face to face is yet to come.

Well they couldn't spot a real homosexual at all. They never spotted me! :D--> The super spiritual MOGS didn't and I met them both several times! I was once labelled as "too religious" though! :P-->

Wierwille certainly did make it a big issue, he considered it consistent with his soteriology. But I think he had the attitude that if he could'nt understand something then why should anybody else? So he proceeded to try and "fit" his ideas into the Word. I wish I still had my copy of JCING as his treatment of John 1 demonstrated the hoops and interpolations he made to try and explain the inconsistencies of the "clear verses" elsewhere against the clarity of expression one finds in John. The greek most certainly does not support his attempted translation "according to usage" and his deliberate attempts to mix in the logos as the Word (as in Bible). Throwing in phrases like "The Word of God is as much God as God is God" only served to mask his inability to carry it off. John is so inconvenient - he states that the Word was God and that the word was made flesh and dwelt among us. I can attest that it actually says that in the Greek and is not a mistranslation. There are also greek texts which render huios (son) as theos (god). Wierwille also ties to make the trinitarian understanding of God over simplistic and his ultimate weapon is too often mockery. Cartoons showing devil spirits lying on their backs and splitting their sides over the idea that "1+1+1=1" for example. His final tack it to claim that if Jesus is God then man has not been redeemed. There is no chapter and verse for such a statement just his usual use of his own logic - he just cannot understand the trinitarian view of Jesus having a dual nature. Such a conclusion is a perfectly reasonable one for many people - a divine being takes flesh and as a man suffers and dies upon the cross. My conclusion is that the subject is not as cut and dried as the Unitarian camp would have. Wierwille's work was at best sloppy and at worse dishonest. There are biblical verses that he does not even attempt to deal with - he steers well away from OT passages for example which you will be familiar with if you know Handel's Messiah.

Another literal translation according to usage: "I am so jealous of what you guys have here. Oh for the sybaritic lifestyle of being waited upon hand and foot and never having to do a day's hard and honest toil. Not having to worry about bills or where the rent or my next meal is coming from. How well you have demonstrated how to appear godly, for which you deserve an Oscar."

In the "old days" we were actually allowed just to go out and socialise or do something interesting for its own sake. We went our for a drink, we went to visit different places, we went to parties. And this was on the WOW field too! Now it sounds like an electronic tag would give more freedom!

A brilliant take on the situation Zix! :D-->

Strange how the gospels never record Jesus asking for money before healing, nor the Apostles in Acts.

I never heard that song! Hmm wonder what they thought that Mama could do about it?

For anyone to think about going back would definitely be the case of the dog and the vomit.

Not wishing to be picky imbus but it's Han not Hans. Except perhaps in the german version Das Krieg Von Sternen! :D-->

But TWI never taught it as a tithe as I recall - they called it Abundant Sharing and added 50% for good measure. They wanted 15% of your earnings so that God could use you as a spitoon. But they wanted much more than a tithe of your time and your loyalty.

Charity being "the love of God, in the renewed mind, in manifestation." We certainly saw a lot of that from TWI leadership! Not....

mj: I'm not quite sure what you mean. Reagan's statement was not meant to mean that nobody else who might be pro abortion will now be born. But it is clear that the yet to be born don't have this choice. If you asked some of these TWI people who counselled abortions if they would have liked it if somebody had counselled their mothers in like vein, I wonder what they would say?

One of the apposite quotes from Ronald Reagan:

We had a phrase over here "hot to trot". Made me think of Trotsky or an unfortunate bowel condition known as "the trots". :D--> We used to be told to watch movies and look for the "leadership principles." Now I expect we would be told to look for "co-ordinatorship principles."..

I wonder what my "status" would be seeing as I left very early in the LCM era and was involved with The Way in GB who later followed Chris Geer en masse in any case. I am not sure that there are any innies over here now or not. But as I have absolutley no interest in obtaining anything from the TWI bookstore my interest is purely academic. :D-->

It's a cynical fact that those most enthusastic at promoting the tithe are the ones who want to receive the money. If people want to tithe that's fine but maybe they should split it to different receivers. TWI didn't think that was a good idea though and I wouldn't be surprised if your pastor disliked the idea too.