Trefor Heywood

Cynic's dismissal of "Trefor’s rhetoric is shallowly generalizing and relativistic crap." is in itself crap and totally missing the point regarding theocracies as excercised (as they always are) by human beings. I studied this period intently at university and even my presbyterian professors, heirs of the equally horrid John Knox, at St Andrews differentiated between Calvin the theologian and Calvin the man. Admittedly it was a more bloodthirsty age that we are casting our twenty first century eyes upon. Luther urges the princes to "stab and slay" the rebellious peasants, though this was a political rather than a religious thing. Catholics burnt heretics and Protestants had Catholics hung drawn and quartered (usually for political reasons). A not very pleasant age in many respects. The claim is my argument is "crap" because Calvin argued before a council and Khomeni didn't. But how these two old birds were viewed was very similar - religion was still above politics and Calvin was given great deference and his word was gospel. To argue that a different mode of execution was somehow to make Calvin a cuddly teddy bear cannot hide the fact that Calvin was still avid and anxious for the death of Servetus on a point of theology. Even if he had not got his way, it is still a stain upon his character. Trying to do a Mike on Calvin isn't going to change that.

Similar arguments were made by the Spanish Inquisition. The heretics were always turned over to the civil power for the auto da fe. Calvin was well aware of what the consequences of his prosecution of Servetus would be. In all such theocracies the civil authorities carry out the will of the spiritual leaders, whether or not they actually have a theoretical civil authority. In Iran Khomeni was the one who people listened to, irrespective of who was actually president. The same applied in Geneva.

Michael Caine The Italian Job Noel Cowerd

There are always dilemmas and dichotomies involved. St Augustine said "love God and do what you will," not as an ecouragement to full licence for that will but because he believed the will would be modified by that loving. But I am also amazed about how much religion emphasises the freedom of the will and then punishes you for excercising it - one's freedom is limited by their definitions - when one questions them, one questions God etc etc. TWI is far from unique in this respect.

Spitting is disgusting, unhygienic and impolite and paying somebody or god (gob?) to do it implies a sub slave mentality. That's no doubt what Martindale was aiming for.

Does hot dog poop count? :D-->

Adams Family Values Christopher Lloyd Star Trek III - The Search for Spock

I'm visiting Washington sometime between 21-31 March - what sort of price range can be expected at these recommended hotels? Any info gratefully received :)-->

Kyle McLachlan Dune Sting

Calvin's example is certainly one of the best arguments against setting up earthly theocracies.

A very moving story, I shall make a point of visiting the statue when I get to Washington towards the end of this month.

Troy Brian Cox Rob Roy Hope I got it right this time! :D-->

Thanks Raf, think I get the gist! However I don't know the movie 13 going on 30 so will have to wait for something I know :D-->

I blame Pirate unless "Henry Thomas" is a film - it should of course have been "My Left Foot" as the film. Humblest apologies!

Phew! I thought it was going to be a case of "if thine hand offend thee then cut it off"! ;)-->

Brenda Fricker Home Alone 2 Mcauley Culkin

Not even your own Jonny?

Yes Jonny, let's get back to those good old days of frontier justice, posses, and lynchings. Let's get back to the state of primitive barbarism and forget about the rule of law and the concept or rehabilitation. Let's go back in time and strangle people at birth because we know they will do something later in life. Let's forget about miscarriages of justice and those who have been convicted once and have never offended again and those whose cycle of offending started because they were once victims themselves and they never got the support and help they needed at the time. "Savage barbarism" can work more than one way.

I would use the same phrase about all of them Mark. But John Paul is better known and has more influence than your "domestic" versions as he is on a world scale and has representation at the UN. There was at least one Pope who abdicated for reasons of health and age - one of the "Celestines" if I remember rightly. In the days when communications were slow and there was no media a Pope was always a shadowy,unknown and distant figure except to those in his immediate vicinity. Now in these days of mass and instant communication it is a very different story. But mention names like Robertson to people outside the US and it's likely they would not have heard of him.

I wish it was hogwash stayed too long but it actually happened - the only thing I have to correct is the word "attached" which should of course have read "attacked." When an offender is due for release the social services departments are informed of their intended address and any objections are requested. As to your remarks about burglars - new guidelines have been issued about what is "reasonable force". There are no plans to change the law on such matters but the interpretation and application appear to be going to be somewhat more lenient from now on. We may not be a gun owning culture here but there are a wide ranging number of other weapons that can be used to teach the bastards a lesson. And please remember that we are the United Kingdom and not just England. Long live our Noble Queen.

More slick advertising from Armstrong's cult - even in Readers Digest. TWI was more word of mouth.

And Stalin is probably responsible for the deaths of more Russians than Hitler. But this was not just nationality this was race and religion - the Nazis considered several races as inferior but saw the Jews as a cancer within and as a world conspiracy and the fact that many famous Jews were Communists helped feed their fantasy.

I wonder if TWI is still taking a denial stance. When we were in we were expected to toe the party line - the overwhelming evidence made me question then, let alone now.

I have seen different versions of this from time to time, it's most certainly not a new epistle. I met John Cleese when I was at University, he was Lord Rector of St Andrews at the time.

NOBODY should have to carry in in such circumstances - a Pope may resign or abdicate. I suspect the Vatican beaurocracy is striving to preserve the illusion of "business as usual" and using him as a rubber stamp. And his age and infirmity do not excuse some things he has issued recently. I would much rather remember the dynamic leader who did a lot of good for the world than the reactionary old bigot we now seem to have. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but as a gay person that is how I feel.