Pax

Doctrine. Because just about 100% of what they taught is made up in someone's imagination. They leave intellectual integrity after about... let's see, "The Bible is an important book, worth becoming familiar with." this was their logical second step (that they didn't take) Religion, although very, very dangerous, can also be a positive thing. They, instead, go the route of legislating truth for others, for profit (and other sick motives). I left the Way because I saw a the possibility of a life based on something more substantial than one man's psychopathology. I left the Way because I knew there were people out there who could honestly teach me the Bible, with intellectual integrity. There were, I did, and "That has made all the difference." Thank you , Lord. True religion is a beautiful thing, it's free, it's humble, it's joyous, it's convicting, it's deep, it's spiritual, it's delightful, it's inclusive, it's unafraid of dispute and differences. Try: "The Center For Progressive Christianity"

Ah, Geo. Geo. Geo., how could I love you any more? not if you were a believer. .... rational/irrational.... yes ,the substrata of primitive religion (fundamentalism) is indeed irrational and, thus, dangerous and despicable. Primitive religion is bad religion, it sucks. However, I hold out hope that I can be Christian rationally (perhaps rational Christianity IS agnostic in that it doesn't claim that faith is fact). My Christianity is an effort to live rationally -- few doctrines except Romans 13:8 have really assisted there. The church is rational, to me, because it structures my life in community... (fancy for ‘makes me up with put, and be up with put by, other people’). If it results in helping the poor and promoting peace and justice that’s rational enough for me (here's the rational substrata of the Bible actually). There are examples of rational scholars within the church (most of them seem to give lectures at Oxford); Gloomy Dean William Ralph Inge was one, I think. 'Gloomy' because he lost his beloved daughter as a child. Marcus Borg, I think, is another. Rational, of course, includes fallible. It's a path. We both hope that people who leave TWI and its irrational, sick religion will break out of the wilderness and find it. Nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita mi ritrovai per una selva oscura, ché la diritta via era smarrita. Ahi quanto a dir qual era è cosa dura esta selva selvaggia e aspra e forte che nel pensier rinova la paura! Tant’ è amara che poco è più morte; ma per trattar del ben ch’i’ vi trovai, dirò de l’altre cose ch’i’ v’ho scorte. Io non so ben ridir com’ i’ v’intrai,10 tant’ era pien di sonno a quel punto che la verace via abbandonai.

I think immediately of Sarah Palin, who is witnessing on a national level to her defenseless beliefs.* [That voodoo preacher who kicked the spirit of witchcraft out of her on video, needs to come back and finish up his imaginary hoodoo.] *You know, the kind that will make her friends richer and richer (drill baby drill) and make millions of Americans enjoy the less abundant life. Sarah, you're witnessing, but God is WATCHING.

Hopefully, increasing numbers of Christians will be on the right side of this battle for human rights. It takes a contortionist of biblical proportions (intellectual integrity be damned) to use scripture to rationalize the denial of marriage equality to LBGTs. Because I believe in progress, I believe LBGTs will be granted marriage equality, then we can move on to things like hunger, poverty, torture, domestic violence, slavery etc. Check out this new book: . http://stores.lulu.com/radical_disciple It may be as crazy as using the Bible against equality, but open eyes are always welcome in Bible readers, right?

I'm offering a DVD course (from Great Courses Inc) for a group of about 15 friends, "The New Testament" by Professor Bart Ehrman of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. I've heard lectures 1 -3 and already learned a great deal (after, like 40 years of Bible study). I'd like to share some of it here and hear reactions. Caveat Lector: Ehrman isn't trying to create believers or unbelievers... he's expounding scripture from an historical point of view. Greek/Roman Context of the NT (Lecture 2) - Details of belief or doctrine were not very important to ancient peoples. Of much more consequence was the quality of their practice of service to the gods (sacrifices etc.). - Monotheism was generally considered a ridiculous notion. - The NT was written in Greek because of Alexander the Great's influence. - 'cult' is short for cultus deorum "care of the gods" - The existence of divine men* was widely recognized throughout Greco-Roman world. Half gods/ half humans were a generally accepted reality. *Eg: "Apollonius of Tyana" ca. 15?–ca. 100? CE (quoting from lecture notes) was miraculously born, healed the sick, raised the dead, delivered divine teachings and ascended to live among the gods forever.

I used to sit in after-school twig meetings (even before "twigs") and listen to KC Pillai on reel-to-reel Wallensack tape recorders with my friends [JS, KS, CR]. It took hours to get accustomed to his accent. The light through the eastern window was pretty rosy due to our Victor-ian spectacles. I still occasionally tell his conversion story to groups.. not sure why except that it's dramatic, I like it, and so do they. Who here has had their image burned in effigy? (or have I added that?)

Knowing figures of speech has had ZERO affect on my Christian walk... maybe I should go back and try again? lol As EWB never, to my knowledge, tried to mock God and attack innocents under his pastoral care... his craziness PALES in comparison to the psychopathology of Victor. If all nutty scholars were sent to the bottom of the sea, we'd have very few dry scholars. God bless EWB who mistaken thought scripture was perfect... he may have helped some people, like me, waste time, but no one was too badly hurt.

For God's sake, only send a child to a camp put on by a mainline denomination (Presbyterian, Methodist. Lutheran, American Baptist, Episcopalian). Advantage: they have policies and rules and training... protections to safeguard children/youth. Camps put on by independent churches ask you to trust that staff/volunteers are mentally OK and trained. You're not sending your child to be brainwashed doctrinally (do that at home - lol) so make sure your kid's counselors won't practicing exorcisms on him/her! MAINLINE FOR SAFETY.

My son (14) is home-schooled (for educational reasons, not religious). He showed an interest in figures of speech so I bought him a copy of crazy EWB's "Figures of Speech in the Bible." Where else will you find such a systematic presentation of figures with examples? My son is a bit wary, since it's so biblical, but has been spied looking things up in it. EWB WAS NUTS... but obsessives like him sometimes do the dirty work the rest of us are too busy living to do.

I once asked Dr. Bruce Metzger what he thought of George Lamsa's translation of the Cry of Dereliction. He said, and I quote exactly, "Rubbish." He was well aware of Lamsa's work, and thought it corrupted by doctrinal biases beyond usefulness. I was next door neighbors with one of Metzger's best friends [N.P.] for years. My wife and I attended cocktail parties (lol) with him and Isobel often on F____r Road. Most respectable scholars believe it's an allusion to Psalm 22 and, if so, perhaps the gospel writer wants one to assume Jesus was eliding the salvific conclusion of that lament. Don't get your panties into a wad, real scholarship is grown-up stuff... not props for some imaginary, superman, historical messiah. My God, My God, for this was I spared... to be free of cult crap and stinkin' thinkin' (my cry of deliverance)

Jesus had hard words to say about those who let family keep them from the kingdom of God. Believe me, TWI is about as far as one can get from the kingdom of God. Flee! Don't leaven your bread! Move out, Jah people!

A really short thread would be, "Things in PFAL That Were True." It is a gobbledygook of half-truths, lies, & slanders... It was Victor's attempt to hide the fact that he wasn't man enough to be real minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ. He was just about good enough to be a felonious Elmer Gantry It's always tragic when such low-lifes get power. I, personally, can't think of a bigger waste of time than looking either for truth or error in PFAL... but, whatever gets you thru the night.

When I took the advanced class; it was mostly a lot of superstitious stuff about devil spirits.... probably still is. How people can take that stuff seriously can only be understood by those of us who did!! lol I've been free of such superstition for over 30 years and haven't had a single instance when any of that knowledge served any purpose other than to humble me for having once believed it. Peeepul, forget devil spirits and join enlightened society - your life will be more abundant instead of more superstitious.

I have good memories of the first 2-3 Rock of Ages. It was more 60ish than the despicable thing it was later. I rode out with Chris Geer from Rye once. We left late, so slept over in a corn field and attended a church breakfast event the next day. Chris and I were never friends... I knew he wasn't trustworthy.

Every time the "Advanced Class" is held... the truth recedes a bit further. Would that mine brethren/sistren might wake up and smell what even most free children abide in... reality.

Matthew 26:64

I saw Victor sign Bibles for people. :P He had a colossal inferiority complex (especially around the issue of IQ and scholarship). He was NOT brilliant... he was pretty ordinary. Most spiritually damning, he mistakenly believed he could mock God. OK, maybe this is off topic, let me 'get back on the ball.' The deification of VPW.... shows, without doubt, that most of us would have been made good Nazis.

While speaking in tongues may be a religiously legitimate practice... even profound, it's been important for me to realize that there is NOTHING supernatural or miraculous about it. For me, thinking otherwise is naught but superstition. Superstition is the bane of good religion. Since I only have so many years left, I'm glad to have finally jettisoned magical believing (no one has EVER walked on water) in favor of reason, sweet reason... the mother and father of good religion.

Has anyone ever posted here about the class Steve H. wanted to make about wisdom? I think it was 1972. I was at Way East HQ on Forest Ave in Rye one day and Steve was in his office there, complaining loudly and bitterly that VPW had told him he couldn't do it. Steve saw it as a direct affront to the operation of his ministry. He had been studying Proverbs and other parts of scripture regarding the topic 'wisdom.' This was around the time, it was rumored, that Steve took the money collected at Way East Sunday evenings and bet on "ponies" at the race track. This was also around the time that a young (high school) Way East follower told me that he washed the light blue Mustang of a staff member there, while Way East staff smoked pot inside the car. I was there frequently and don't doubt any of this. True or not, Steve, God bless him, was Way in over his head. He was not mature enough at that time, to be a responsible leader of so many people who trusted his ministry with such a huge part of their lives. Even as a young, glassy-eyed, naive, Waybot, I knew this man couldn't manifest the spirit (operate a ministry) out of a paper bag. His successors there did no better... and one, at least, was cruel in a way Steve never was. I noticed that TWI leaders that seemed the most mature or enlightened quit or were booted. Why, then did I hang around TWI for another 6 years or so? I guess I "needed the eggs."

Someone mentioned reading Augustine's 'City of God.' In defining the church, I always think of Auggie's distinction between the visible and invisible church. Here it is from Wikipedia... IMHO, The amount of 'wheat' in the invisible church will amaze even the most progressive Christian. The amount of 'wheat' in the visible church would dismay all but the most hardened misanthrope. (Please excuse my formatting... this is my first post in many years. Long time participants might remember me as "Plotinus" or "Juan Cruz").