Pax

Thanks for your kind words. I've sent each of you a private message. Kudos to Sudo for remembering my profession which I won't reveal because I hope to be accepted by despite my perversion. We can't all be dentists. I'm guessing, the more I think about it.. that a lot of you know. Oh well, nothing to be ashamed of... well, nothing to be horrified about... well.... I might retire in 10-20 years... O Lord, I'm depressed.... c u later.

Excathedra, I'd commend to anyone and everyone "The World's Religions" by Huston Smith -the very best one volume work on world religions. Reading the chapters on Hinduism and Buddhism were terribly moving experiences for me. For Christianity, Marcus Borg writes beautifully and is on the cutting edge of progressive Xnty.

I was Plotinus on these forums way back when. I participated here shortly after these forums began. I sojourned years later as "Juan Cruz." Juan posted some poems that still make me laugh. "I've Got Curses" is a personal favorite of Juan's. Now I'm back as Pax. I took the PFAL class in the basement of Rye Presbyterian Church in Sept./Oct. of 1971. I was 15. I saw many leaders up close... none were impressive. Some were worse than others. Most of my fellow Groovy Christians of Rye, NY were impressive, and I love them very much. I'm glad that so few are still in bondage to Victor's brand of bad religion. I got out after seven very active, committed years in which I ran classes, went door-to-door (even in Manhattan), and helped organize events. From reading the best and most respected Christian literature, I saw how sadly wrong, misguided, and venal Victor was. A friend in college died as a direct result of Victor's misleadings re: healing and believing. A dear high school friend was sexually abused by Victor. I wax indignant regarding Victor. He hurt people whom I love. I let him waste too many precious years of my walk. He is in the lowest place of my deepest metaphorical inferno. I was born in Endwell and I hope I do. I grew up in Rye, and have lived in Manhattan, Brooklyn, Princeton, Schenectady, and in the NJ suburbs of The Big Apple. Organic gardening, political and environmental activism, reading classics, following NY sports teams, and living happily with my wife (also from Rye and a talented artist), and our two kids (16 & 14) who are unschooled, keeps me grateful. I believe in God. Jesus is the center of my life. The Bible is my story. I take scripture seriously, but not literally. I'm a progressive, social-justice pursuing Christian. I don't believe God breaks the laws of physics/nature. A man named Jesus never walked on water literally, but metaphorically He did and He does. I can't commit to stay here long, or to be a regular poster but I love Pawtucket for making this available. I have enjoyed his personal company on occasion, and I equally enjoy his cyber-hospitality here when the spirit troubles my tukhus into the Greasespot Pool of Siloam.

right on, Broken Arrow, ... I'll be running that through my cranial computer, and using it in public speaking for the sake of those who that might hear me... and who have been hurt. In the name of one who walked beside the Galilean Sea and gathered common folk like ourselves to His side, that we all might follow Him down life's dusty roads; the name of Jesus of Nazareth, Amen.

in agreement with Cheranne and a few others here.... It's important for all of us Ex-Wayfers to remember, and remember well, that Victor had no idea what he was talking about the great majority of the time. His view of the Bible was wrong It ain't a divine product of the spirit here on earth. It's the product of people responding to (not with) the divine spirit - big difference. His view of women made him a criminal. His view of the role of material goods to the abundant life was 180 degrees off and toxic to put it mildly. Oh, what else? He was a dope in sheep's clothing. Flee away from his teachings. There is such a thing as good religion and bad religion... fundamentalism is bad religion. Victor was almost too confused to be a legitimate fundamentalist.

JavaJane, "Pagan tendencies" YES! I wonder if anyone who is unaware of some pagan tendencies in themselves isn't really all that self-aware. Or... just WAY too religious. hmmm?

There are 25+ ordained ministers who are friends on my FB page (explains SO MUCH about my life). What do they respond to my post that resembles the start of this thread above? Nothing. They are ALL working on their sermons! :) Or, they are Shocked that I don't believe it's God's will for every human to become self-identified as Christian.

I mean if the Interpretation of "Jesus is Lord" is that all people should be Christian... I don't think so. Those who want all people to be 'born again,' ought to stick to just the one birth, and try to grow up.

we were so so we were we so were we lived a year of magical thinking Daddy owned the cattle on a thousand hills eternal life had begun early our hearts were filled with fire then.... bad religion stokes the sin of small men... men in wolves' clothing Merde Merde Merde I tell you they were all up to their souls in Merde and scriptural non-reality cemented them there* the wheels on the bus stopped going round and round we got off and that has made all the difference some stayed on, they are exactly where we left them... to the meter Give up fundamentalism... it sucks as religion (it's pretty good as justification for sin... slavery, hatred, violence, war, phobia, capitalism etc. ) Trust legitimate scholarship religion doesn't have to be awful even if the road with Jesus is dusty, dusty better to be on the dusty roads with Jesus than on the motor coach with merde. behold... eternal life is right there at your right hand just like death and Daddy's cattle and our hearts are filled with fire. *"The heart cannot easily accept what the mind rejects." Marcus Borg

that groovy girl, for girl she was at that time, turned me on to Handel's Messiah and Alastair Sim's climatic grin ... She was everything a young girl should know and feel and be. on our only date ever, I wore Chuck Taylor All-Stars and a new suit. I pinned a corsage on her pretty dress. but a way east function was not a date a dinner concert pressed down shakin' together running over we were, so we were in a castle in Rye with maroon tablecloths ice water and waitresses glad for a strange crowd she was a star... someone's star not my future star not Victor's private star God damn it "I think somebody better put out the big light, cause I can't stand to see you this way. Alison, I know this world is killing you. Oh, Alison, my aim is true ..."

I got this from half a dozen people, on my Facebook page "Let's start a Christian Revival right here, right now! Click "like" if you believe that Jesus is Lord!! " My viewpoint: Jesus is Lord for Christian people (duh!). I will Only pray that the SPIRIT of Jesus will lord it over all humankind (compassion, tolerance, justice, peace etc.). I do not ask that Jesus, the person, be Lord over non-Christians (of course they are welcome to accept Jesus - none are turned away). Many other faiths are authentic ways to approach, enjoy, and serve God. Also, non-believers can (and frequently do) manifest the spirit of Jesus as well as, or better than, some believers. This is what I believe. So, NO, I will not 'FB Like' statements like "Jesus is Lord." That exclusivistic, triumphalism is not the kind of revival I seek.

Socks, I like your post and hope to respond further but regarding the book... I didn't write or read the book, I don't intend to read it anytime soon... I said, regarding the book, "It may be as crazy as using the Bible against equality..." I really meant that. I posted a link to it as a conversation starter... sometimes these far-fetched theories lead on to better ones. It kinda makes me chuckle that someone found three affirmed gay couples in Jesus' storytelling... crazier things are in scripture and I'd be delighted if it were true. The only important thing is that marriage equality is the better stance for those of us wishing to be faithful to the whole witness of scriptural truth. IMHO Pax

anyone who really believed in devil spirits had really drunk too much of the koolaid oh yeah, i bought the foolishness almost entirely for almost a good while after all I was a big deal Advanced Class grad lol If you still believe in devil spirits stop now and accept reality As Christians, I'm sure God does not intend or expect us to remain in 1st century mindsets Even the writers of the NT probably were being metaphorical but NO, we have to take it lit er al ly because we think literally equals seriously well, seriously, you're looking and thinking and acting like a biblical fool if you believe people around you are possessed. What a show it allowed Victor to put on!

Sunesis, I was sitting on the floor to the left of the kid with long blond hair in that Life Mag. photo taken in the Lowery's living room. I'm still in touch with just about every Rye dude/dudette in that photo/article except poor, sad, nutty CG. He was clearly nuts even then... I knew it... not sure everyone else did.... I guess Victor didn't or didn't care. Of course, Victor was pathetically mentally screwy too. I hope he enjoyed the money... and the power and the adulation and the young women we have the advantage of being able to reject his HORRIBLE HORRIBLE untrue-in-almost-every-way teachings and a shot at a truly abundant life. I'm confident that Victor rots in hell for violating the sacred trust given religious leaders vis-a-vis their followers -- I'm SORRY if Wierwille children are reading -- I know that's why a lot of others don't/won't curse the butt head..... but it needs to be expressed.... he was a false profit... a huckster.... a con-artist.... a reprobate.. a liar.... a scumandadouche bag maybe he was a good father ... hope so (edited to substitute "butt head" for a term that the forum automatically censors)

"The Bible is true and some of it actually happened." (I'd guess.... not this part)

Well, if you mean the historical Jesus, I'd recommend starting with John Dominick Crossan's Jesus, a Revolutionary Biography. You'll remember the part about dogs around the foot of the cross, but really that's not the most important part of the book.

I was a "Groovy Christian" (still am). I took PFAL in the basement of Rye Presbyterian Church in 1971. I was 15.

sorry guys, that I've been away lots of wonderful things happening in my life and and family and faith family :) I'll try to read what others have written here except I really don't have much patience for attempts to justify oppression using the Bible... common, really, wake up smell the aeon we're in... hell, we could justify slavery and massacres of women and children using the Bible It's not what we don't know about the Bible that's troublesome.... it's what we DO know! and yet, it's central to our faith it's our story our identity document It's our faith ancestors' response to who they thought God was (and sometimes they were right)

If you define a miracle as a verified breaking of the laws of physics I've only ever seen one. Here it is: How easy it would be to prove to the world that speaking in tongues is a genuine miracle - if it was. Just identify one of the "tongues of men" being spoken sufficiently well... and then verify that the manifester has had no earthly acquaintance with said language. Non? Until then, Geo. Aar's theory regarding speaking in tongues seems to obey Occam's Razor. Speech can be disassociated from thought content as any child shows in "jibberish." I still hold that speaking in tongues can unmiraculously be a legitimate religious practice.

So, if biblical times were full of demigods, half-human/half-divine who were of miraculous births who walked on water and raised the dead who rose from the dead and ascended to Mt. Olympus... could it be? That these aspects of the four gospels are less than historical? If we admit that the four gospels contain significant, legendary, non-historical portions are we "of all men most miserable"? I trow not... we become of all people most intellectually honest. And many true riches of Christianity are allowed to come into focus. Good religion doesn't insist that less-than-rational, non-historical stuff be taken literally. The world sees such a false witness as signs of soft-headedness. and who can blame them? Can't one's witness be to the coherent, rational message of the gospels? While still loving the legendary portions and interpreting them as the spirit that authored them probably did (religiously and non-historically)? The gospels that I read (legendary miracles included) preach: self-sacrificial love, anti-materialism, tolerance, compassion, inclusiveness, speaking-truth-to-power, and many, many,many other ... great messages for the living of these days, for the living of these days.

I was born in Endwell, and I hope I do.

John Shuck is one very bright, insightful, courageous, funny Presbyterian clergy heretic. His is my favorite blog re: organized or unorganized religion. It's impressive that in Tennessee he can fill a church to overflowing while holding such radical views. If you're satisfied with old time religion ... stay away. I haven't progressed as far as he has ... but might as I take the time to think. http://www.shuckandjive.org/

Unitarian Universalism is to The Way International as Shakespeare is to Weird Al Yankovich Victor Wierwille is to John Shelby Spong as Glen Beck is to the Dali Lama

Sorry to be off topic but "Actual Errors in PFAL" is just too much an exercise in futility. I can be more helpful. Please read "The Road Less Traveled by M. Scott Peck. You'll learn more Christian truth in the first chapter than Victor could bouldercake in 14 hours. Or The Confessions of St. Augustine. If you're Christian, and can read, and haven't read them... I can only ask... "Why not?" This may be the best book ever written. Or the prayers of St. Anselm. Believers have fed on them for over a thousand years. I kept my copy near the throne for years. The Little Flowers of St. Francis! As close to Jesus as any mortal ever. Henry Suso (for those of you who like their religion a bit kinky). Evelyn Underhill.... most brilliant religious mind of her time... her spritual director (Baron Von Hugel) told her she wasn't spending enough time serving the poor. PFAL is exactly what it sounds like (a piffle).

So is marrying if you're not a virgin (ladies... OK for men). So are tattoos. So is divorce. So is football (playing with the skin of a pig). So is long hair for (some) men and short hair for (some) women. Oh peepull, when are we going to graduate from proof-texting our social agendas? Please don't bash with the Bible, it's... it's... unseemly.