Pax

Sunesis, I'd be willing to give my opinion on 'How long man (sic) has been on earth.' Subtitle: 'When Adam was made.' (This is the much more interesting question to me as it is literary, not historical.) First though, I think it's significant to note that the Wikipedia article on 'human' never mentions; "Adam" or "Bible" or "Genesis." This is for the same reason that professional wrestling results are not reported in newspaper "Sports" sections.

Sunesis, Sorry my sharing sent you into sarcasm. Sense, science and sacredness all share a sure story that isn't self-interested, sophomoric or separate from supplying solace to a sight-seeking society. Should such shocking statements be sent from sorry sources such as share space here, are you sure that sucks? So, silliness aside, how shall I share with sufficient savior faire to stop such savants as sometimes soil the 'spot with pseudo-scholarly scripts from saying, "stay away, Stupid?"

There never was an "Adam." There never was a "Noah." There may have been an Abraham (I believe so). So, the historical part of Genesis starts around Gen. 12. This is what is taught at Princeton Seminary and this is what I accept along with most mainstream biblical students. Literalists are welcome to their beliefs but don't get totally into denial that you are twisting the Bible into knots trying to make a literal interpretation of Genesis 1-11 work out. not to mention a significant confusion of religion and science.

I'm a beginner at this, first year. any suggestions are welcome. I've been making tomato sauce ('gravy' as my Italian neighbors call it) with my nice Roma harvest. I also add cans of locally grown, organic, plum tomatoes if I have ready Romas but not enough to justify sauce making. I throw other varieties of tomatoes in if they are reaching prime, with no plans for their immediate use. I use the recipe for "Basil-Garlic Tomato Sauce" from the Bell Blue Book: guide to preserving (2010), page 74. We have a 12" pot, 2 steps out the back door with sweet basil growing in it. I also grew my own oregano this year... success . I'm freezing the completed sauce in zip loc bags (after it cools off - trying not to connect hot food and plastics now for food safety reasons) and putting them in a deep freeze at zero degrees. This winter I'll make lasagnas and other Italian entrees.

Why did I use Nobel Prize winner vs. Jesus or Paul? this is off topic but, I think the literal interpretation of the gospel and Acts made it too difficult to identify with Jesus or Paul. A metaphorical interpretation of scripture opens many new vistas of faithful and serious use of scripture. to bring it back on topic: I'm special, but not a literal "rise up and walk" kind of special.

I've seen this thread for days but didn't read the opening post until just now. While I agree with what was said, it's really just the title that cracks me up each time I see it. "You're not special" is such a sick thing to communicate to anyone. See the lack of faithful love being practiced? Oh, how is it that Way people can't see the error? Communicate to anyone that they are not special, and you are in LaLa Land. You don't have a clue who God is, despite Jesus shouting it from the rooftops if you have not yet discerned the specialness in each human being's soul. I used to imagine to myself that each person I met had won a Nobel Peace Prize to train myself to give the appropriate God-like respect to all. I only do it very rarely now, for fun or maybe to check up on myself? Will I treat them differently? The Nobel Peace Prize, to God, is the difference between a 6' tall person and a 5' tall person from an airplane at 3,000 feet. [from Isaiah] God remembers us better than a mother remembers her nursing child. God tattoos our names on Her palms and then holds Her hands before Her face. just so She won't lose thought of us for a moment. A Christian who communicates, "You're not special" is like a modern astronomer saying, "The earth is flat." They aren't deserving of the name. only slightly off topic: Chunk America used to say, impersonating Victor's accent, "God bless, get undressed," (we didn't know Victor's crimes then) or (remember the Victor accent, it's important) "God curse, you're the worst." Chunk, of course, was joking.

If someone says, "I think mansion means an abode in the north where I might be one day." and you say "Maybe mansion is part of a literary device and does not indicate any geographic location you might literally be one day." is that being off topic? My words were not just for you, in this PUBLIC forum they were for anyone for whom biblicist literalism has become tiresome discredited and less-than-profitable. Since that is not you, I wish you well, and will leave your private thread to yourself and others who want to concentrate on this word study "Play nice" was hurtful. Since when is disagreement, respectfully stated, not playing nice? I will not force my opinions on you again.

Teachme, Are we taking the second coming of Christ a bit literally? Ever considered that, as apocalyptic literature, those sections of the NT were never meant to be taken literally? "Literally" does not mean "really" as in "really true." Literally is not the only way to take scripture as seriously as a Way Corp member. lol Look where it got them. (literalism, not seriousness) Scriptures that are interpreted metaphorically can be taken just as "really true." and just as seriously. Garrison Keillor's "Lake Wobegon" stories are SO true. really true ... but not literally true. We need to interpret scripture so that people will say, "Oh my goodness that is SO true!" (Otherwise we're workmen that need to be ashamed.) Scriptural stories (Jesus walking on water for example) can be really true without being literally true in fact, for me, Truer. Metaphor does not mean untrue or lying! Why did the gospel writer talk about Jesus walking on water? Is it because Jesus broke 100 laws of physics? which of course, God could do, so I'm not saying That but how likely was it that God and Jesus really did this We just weren't there to take a video! Even a Waybot can interpret those metaphors... chaos, waters, Gen. 1:1-2, leviathan etc., faith, believing, trust, obey... and off you go as a workman not denying one's doubts about historical veracity but WORKING the Word. It Works if you Work it, so Work it, the World is Worth it. Jesus' return IS "really true" just perhaps ... not literally true. No buses crashing though storefronts?!? No "Left Behind"? "NO" makes much more sense to my mind. Can you accept that possibility? If so, you can learn why Jesus' return is such a potentially dynamite metaphorical truth. My heart can accept much easier what my mind does not reject just one person's humble opinion for your consideration

And, Roy, in fact, Adam and Eve did not use their hands to pick the live fruit, veggies or whatever. Their hands were occupied in holding together their fig leaf underwear. This was a source of much laughter, as well as nutrition. [scenes from Paradise]

Hallelujah! That's a church/home fellowship, whatever, that I'd be proud to belong to! or a brother that I'd take downtown Elizabeth (NJ) for empanadas!

SirGuessalot, If I get you right, you would add to radical inclusiveness symbolized in Holy COmmunion, sustainable sources for our food. That seems a natural ethic for symbolism by Holy Communion to carry. What's holy about breaking bread that is grown at the expense of our children's children's home on earth? What's holy about wine that's crushed along with the health of those who drink it? My church has banned disposable cups, plates, silverware etc. from church functions. (People love real mugs.) Our coffeehouse (one of the best venues for live music in NJ) also, is a Styrofoam Free Zone. We have our own compost piles -- no chemically & fossil-fuel-fixed nitrogen fertilizers on our beautiful lawns Those chemically & fossil-fuel-fixed nitrogen fertilizers run off into our own drinking water sources (and we wonder about the increase in cancer! - doh!). We have our own organic garden too. Last Sunday the Communion Table was decorated with LOTS of organically grown: patty pan, tomatoes (3-4 varieties), yellow squash, gourds, wax beans, green beans, turnips, carrots, musk melon, zukes, cukes, hot peppers, acorn squash and more. It was beautiful. We called it "God's Generous Gifts" and everyone took whatever they wanted home afterwards. sound holy to you? me too. Holy Communion sitting on top of unsustained and unsustainable food sources is only a wee tiny bit holy, IMHO. so, I agree, 1. let's accept all into God's fiesta 2. and fiesta in harmony with God's design for breaking bread together with each other and Mother Nature. Sign in our church: "Praise Father, Son, Holy Spirit and Mother Nature."

Well, I like Holy Communion as a celebration of God's radical universal acceptance and love it makes it more moving, fun, and meaningful... than what it used to mean to me (ie. we Christians are connected to each other and Jesus... a fine message none-the-less) Pope John XXIII was asked what he was going to do as Pope. He walked across the room and opened the window. Aggiornamento, they called it, with hope and joy. "This bread and this wine represent God's radical invitation to ALL to dine in the kingdom of God." Come all you without money, without power, without the requisite good looks and fine education. Come to the feast of the lamb, all you who labor Come, partake of the tree with twelve kinds of fruit, that bears its fruit each month... and whose leaves are for the healing of all the peoples who have AIDS, who have malaria, fevers, malnutrition ... Who've lost their babies... their husbands... their hope. They took your job so you couldn't feed your family. They took your daughter in front of you, then killed her casually. Who have died in coal mines, who coughed out their lungs with coal dust. Who are sickened unto spiritual death by the toxin of worldly wealth... Who are addicted to substances and cannot stop, cannot stop, cannot stop ... You were tortured, raped, intimidated, spat upon, shut up in prisons... YOU!! YOU!! God invites you to a feast where there is love without earthly limitations without questions about which team you've been rooting for ... "What creeds do you adhere to, Son?" "Oh God, I was really hoping that You wouldn't ask that question. Weren't You supposed to be able to see into my sweet aching heart?"

Thanks to all for your thoughtful responses. I must confess I have not yet read slowly and carefully each response - I will. so this might be premature but... (as I have two mouths and one ear lol) Yes, H.C. is entering into and participating in the New Covenant. AGREED And what is the New Covenant? an exclusively Christian thing? or... A Christian way to celebrate and remember God's radical acceptance of everyone* to the (already/not yet) reign of peace and justice presided over by God and shown perfectly for us in Jesus Christ Thus, H.C. is participation in a metaphorical agape feast for..... ? you decide ..just Christians? or everybody? Your answer to that will determine what kind of Christian you will be exclusive? or inclusive? and whichever you decide is what Holy Communion will confirm in your heart and soul each time you partake * "Come unto me ALL ye who labor and are heavy laden" - is a very common H.C. invitation quote or should the heavy revvy say, "Come unto me all ye who self-identify as my personal flock and I will give you rest?

Ken, when Sue married you I knew you had to be cool. I'm glad you are still together and happy. You always seemed an independent soul to me... though we all drank a sub-lethal dose of the Koolaid, didn't we? Peace, Pax

I used to hear in church before communion... "All those who are baptized in the Christian faith are welcome to partake of these gifts." before that, some churches would only serve communion to members who had attended church at least once that previous month. This was the original reason for pads of paper in pews that one signed when you went to church. Then I heard, (much hipper) "All those who sincerely desire a closer relationship with their Lord Jesus are invited and encouraged to participate in this sacrament." This eliminates baptism (no need to SIT or show papers) but stipulates with two words ("their Lord") that one be Christian. What I'd like to hear now is something like: "God's generous gifts are for everyone. All who desire to participate in a meal to celebrate God's generous goodness to all of creation are welcome to join us in sharing this bread and this cup." ...reminds me of The Kingdom of God is a Party, a fine book by the funny Christian author/speaker/teacher, Anthony Campolo. John Dominick Crossan teaches that eating meals is a major aspect of Jesus' earthly ministry. In them he shows that radical inclusiveness is a sine quae non of the kingdom of heaven. The old Eucharistic tag line, ministers say, then begins to make more sense, "When we eat this bread, and drink this cup, we do proclaim what Christ as done, until He comes again in glory." What Christ has done is accept us... all of us. All without exception. Who ever thought that "Christian" should be used as a visible divider? Jesus divides, but not by Christian vs. non-Christian Jesus divides along other lines. Show us the lines, God. And keep us on the right side of the divide! I guess we perceive the lines only by walking with Jesus. (sorta like the river won't divide until we step in it?)

I made it through 1 minute 12 seconds of the Kay Perry - Letterman appearance video. I'll forever wonder, maybe, if I should have given it another minute. Chalk it up to different tastes for different people. I wish her all the best.

George, I opened a new thread re: "ritualized cannibalism" (just because I enjoy it so much) "self-denial" well, the lack of a moderate self-denial has brought our home, this Earth, to the brink of destruction. Maybe a bit of fossil fuel self-denial is in order. I hope that Christianity sees stewardship of creation as paramount in importance. "human sacrifice" You mean, because we refuse to end wars for profit? Guilty. All Christians should protest vehemently against wars of convenience for fat white guys. I'm really tired of seeing bodies of wonderful young boys and girls come home from abroad. Ya wanna wish "Happy Holidays" to THEIR families? -- 4,400 something from Iraq. Yes, that's Christian-sanctioned human sacrifice. Is that what you meant? "rejection of family and friends" Well, that's kinda deep spiritual merde. One can't follow Jesus down life's dusty roads with one's hands holding on to momma's apron strings. One has to be ready to let go of one's worldly ties sometimes. "Forsaking" mother and father, sister and brother, in Jesus' admonition, might not have to mean, despising them. Love the crazy world of your family, but don't let them hold you back from your pilgrimage of self-denial, human sacrifice(?) and ritualistic cannibalism. huh? I know you know these things, but the chance to discuss them is welcome. How do YOU see them as parts of Christianity?

George is right (on another thread) to say that the Eucharist (Holy Communion) is nothing but "ritualized cannibalism" [if I add, "as practiced by the great majority of Christian fellowships."] Where I partake and take part of these rituals, we teach 'Point Three' of The Center for Progressive Christianity's "8 Points." It sez, (By "Progressive" we.....) 3. Understand the sharing of bread and wine in Jesus's name to be a representation of an ancient vision of God's feast for all peoples It just makes a believer sigh with relief to see ancient schemes turned to modern dreams. Now, I'm sure, George will be ready to come the first Sunday of each month.

NOR DO I!!! I'm sorry if any of my rants against bad religion implied that the practitioners were evil. No, only the hypocrisy and crimes and mumbo jumbo teachings of some leaders. Those who say one thing and do another re: public and private sexuality are to be most pitied. Often their financial, psychological, and familial well-being drive them to these falsehoods. Fundamentalism is a powerful counterfeit of good religion... but alack, we're surrounded by it in different flavors... Muslim & Christian, among others. It's sad because progressive Christianity with, an enlightened view of scripture, has the lasting power that biblicism, with its house-of-cards-faith, doesn't and it does provide a firm basis for a healthy sexuality and guidance for living joyfully and faithfully, in times that demand good guidance instead of retrenchment into some idealized, false history of an easier time with paint-by-number morality that works well for older, white, straight, European-extracted males (like me). For those who want to take a peek at progressive Christianity I recommend this book ... THE HEART OF CHRISTIANITY by Marcus Borg... "The heart cannot easily accept what the mind rejects." Marcus Borg

Dear TheEvan, Unschooling is perfect for any children who, with their parents, are confident that they can teach themselves better than any school, public or private can. I have nothing against teachers (my mother was one) it's the system that teachers are placed in that helped us decide (correctly, it has turned out) that unschooling is best for our children. They are smarter, happier, independent, emotionally strong, more motivated around more for us to enjoy these incredible years, socially engaged (they can talk when moved to do so and be quiet when so moved), attentive to mind/body/spirit, and they cook and clean too. http://www.wesjones.com/gatto1.htm more than this and I'll start a thread edited for some grammar mistakes (!)

George, sorry friend, were you talking about Christianity or Glenn Beck's followers?

I took the Advanced Class in New Knoxville around 1972 or so... Victor taught that homosexuality was a devil spirit in that class. delusional pea-brain I wish we would just accept the modest percent of the population that don't fit into 1950's morality categories Then we could get on with significant issues like avoiding war and poverty. I guess that LGBT reality bothers fundamentalists because that kind of faith sucks as a basis for supporting healthy sexuality. sexuality is a wonderfully complex thing if you can't handle that it's not black or white just try to be humble and quiet and let the rest of humanity around you live, and make love in committed relationships, in peace. but NO! You have to assert how righteous YOU are. God NEEDS you to set things into neat categories. May I remind all of us that life is short? DO you wish to be remembered as someone who let others live in peace? or as someone who persecuted people for their less-than-conventional sexuality? edited to reflect my belief that promiscuity, equally present in all orientations IS a sin

Thanks Waysider, it's great to hear those versions! We're gonna play it off Lion King on DVD through a TV to maximize audio capability.

The guy who put "The Lion Sleeps Tonight" in its final form for the Tokens (George David Weiss, I think) sleeps tonight (he died this week) We wanna sing it in church tomorrow after the benediction_ anybody able to provide an audio file that could be played through a laptop? We haven't succeeded yet in playing videos through the laptop... though we use Powerpoint slides a lot [[maybe a primer on how to do that simply might help too... we run windows 7 on the laptop i know this should be easy but I'v failed twice and just haven't gotten around to it again.]] I'll be back online EARLY tomorrow morning to see what's possible... a piano player told he he's ready to play the verses.. but I think trying to do all the |A-wimowhes and De-we-um-um-a-ways.. would not work ... we need to sing with a recording of it don't we? Oh, why didn't I get started earlier?... I might have to go to Walmart at 7am and try to buy a Lion King CD... WAIT, that's it... play the Lion King DVD or VHS cued up to that song.. it's in Lion King, isn't it?... gotta go..haven't eaten in too long... not good for me don't waste time on this unless it would please you My lack of preparation is certainly not any else's emergency.

Hi, I've returned after years... see "members" for details if u wish. This is only my second year growing veggies... I grow organically. I've got two small gardens and one medium sized joint... 10x10, I think. This because my small property is completely shade... my 7X5 shade garden produced lettuce, herbs and carrots. (radishes failed, spinach failed, snap peas failed) the medium garden is at a friend's house 1/2 mile from my house and the other is behind a church.. I can use the small plot in exchange for teaching the teens how to garden. The church also provides space and lots of leaves/grass for composting. My Romas did very well... the others ("Better Boy" was one) just OK. I've worked hard at composting and improving my soils. btw: I've started top dressing compost on my front yard under the two HUGE oak trees. Can I hope that the bare patches fill in? Seed failed this spring... will try again this fall. The soil there sucks. Today, I harvested nice medium sized carrots which are delicious... .... a couple of cukes, wax and green beans, jalapeños, and seranos I had no luck with snap peas this year.. two diff varieties... got a handful. I belong to an organic CSA called "Good Tree Farm" in New Egypt, NJ. The farmer is a PhD in plant breeding... a delightful Muslim man with a beautiful family. He bemoans the lack of rain this summer. I got lots of squash: patty pan, white/yellow squash, 2-3 vars of zukes, long white radishes, musk melon, ... his grape tomatoes are unique (to me) and to die for. so that's me.. I'll to read the above on my next day off. I hope to compost my way to instant perfect veggies every time. too optimistic? lol