Bramble

I've found that smoke filled bars do make me feel yucky the next day, and I've had that hung over but didn't drink feeling. I thought it had to do with sinus pressure. As I've gotten older (almost 50)a heart defect(I was a preemie and had some minor heart abnormalities all my life)has become more of an issue. I now have to watch my diet, water, alchohol, caffiene and medications very closely, but if I do what I'm supposed to do I feel just as I always always did, like I'm twentyfive or so. Not as limber, though! And I feel better if I get regular sleep.

Allan Here's a link to a site with basic info on many religions and belief systems. I think the Way International is even there, but am not positive about that. http://www.religioustolerance.org/ Or you can try google.

One last post for clarity: Being a meany = anti witness because people won't want to go to church with you. Being loving = witness so people might want to go to church with you.

Oak--I wasn't clear--I just added the phrase--turning people off etc... Of course I knew exactly what I was saying in my own mind and yes, did expect everyone would get it :o-->

Um, excuse me-- I was calling Allan's unkind treatment of Rascal an 'anti witness'. As in,not showing his faith in a good light. I WAS NOT calling myself an'anti witness'. Believe what you will. I believe people should research and choose their own belief system. Period.

Um, Allan, I was saying that your picking on Rascal by calling her a pagan might be perceived BY HER as an anti witness and a slam against your very own religion. Being picked on by a Christian might make a Christian decide to investigate other beliefs, since they aren't seein' the love. In other words, believer riding another believer=anti witness to the faith of the believer. Get it now?? Sorry I wasn't more clear.

Allan, this is not a Christian forum, it is an ex Way forum. Not all ex Way are Christian, but they can still speak about thier experiences in TWI. If Pawtucket wants the non Christians to leave, he can say so. It is his forum. If you click on names you can read profiles--that may tell you about the person. Rascal, as far as I know, is Christian, but with you around, you just might steer her my way. The anti witness--turning people off from your faith.. If being on a message board with non Christians is so horrifying, maybe you could join one of the all Christian ex Way forums, or start your own. Someone not Christian is not automatically eeeviiilll. Just as someone who is Christian is not automatically good. Since I've never been involved in, say, the prison system, or with drug dealers or violent gang members, my closest brush with evil folk has been some experiences I've had with Way Leaders. Edited for clarity, my bad.

The type of authority that TWi exerted over its followers is not typical of most churches, as far as I can tell. Church people would be horrified at the types of things we a(almost) took for granted--having leadershi+ inspect your house, handing over lists of every item in your home, including medications. Having your budget scrutinized. Schedules that showed when you would have sex with your spouse. Planning play dates for toddlers a week in advance--and nonspontaneous play or unscheduled stuff was of the devil.Going two by two all the time(so one spouse couldn't stay home with the kiddies, everyone had to go)...Insano stuff. Try to pull that stuff in a Methodist church and see how far you'll fly.

Allan--the Pentacostal Church I went to was a converted house, back in 1973, unaffiliated with any big denomination--a rebel, if you will. Times have changed, man. How many churches nowdays have SIT or groups that SIT? Heck, I even know some charismatic Roman Catholics. I was in TWI for 20 years, nearly all my adult life. I quit SIT deliberately a few years ago because I realized it was my response to a crisis situation, I had doubts about it, and I wanted to see if life would be better or worse with or with out it. Yup, that's me. Risk taking all the way. Haven't missed it. Life since we left has constantly improved. Put down other churches all you want, Allan,--I know how ugly life in TWI was. Now, I could gloss over all the yucky stuff and constantly parrot the happy memories--but what would be the point? To help people join TWI. Not doing that! Not raising my kids in it.

John Linder is good looking? How come no one ever mentioned this before!

I'm one of the three (so far) pagan/Wiccan types here. I know a couple of exway who are pagan(one is Wiccan, the other a mix of stuff, mostly shamanism) but neither hang out here and both are pretty removed from all the exway/TWI stuff. I hang out here because the exTWi stuff is of interest to me, but I have other places to go for 'fellowship.'

My best high school friend did a brief but memorable stint in a Pentecostal Church when we were around sixteen--she had a brand new Mustang, and we both worked the same shift at Mcdonalds--fun times. I went to church with her several times, heard SIT(with a different person doing the interp) and only the minister gave words of prophecy at this church. Also, they had a million rules about women's clothing(dresses only, no makeup etc) which was a real deal breaker for me, since fashion was one of my major interests in life at that age! In between thoughts of boys and clothes I do remember reading the Are You Saved? pamphlets etc, and I did the Let Jesus into your Heart prayer...never spoke in tongues until I met the wows.

I met my husband--he was one of the wows that got me into PFAL. We have three wonderful children. Since we were from very different areas of the country, I doubt I would ever have met him except for the wow program. I can recognise boundary jumpers and control freaks very quickly now, which I certainly couldn't do as a young girl. Hopefully I can communicate this knowledge and ability to my own children and friends.

Turning questions around on people was a witnessing technique taught in TWI. I remember that from my Wow year. It helped you to wiggle out of discussions about things that might be deal breakers to getting them in the class.

Stating a belief is Pushing? Since when? Hey--here's a big one. I believe caffiene is unhealthy!!! Now, I bet I just influenced a ton of posters here to quit caffiene!!! Oh the power I have! If I'd only known earlier!

How are you going to stop anything here at GSC, Allan? Are you the new site owner? How are you going to change anyone's personal beliefs or opinions? Or make them shut up? You only control your own reply button! We're not in TWI anymore, we're not cowering in fear before the Big Wise Leaderman. Its a big change. People will be who they are. Welcome to the Big Wide World.

As one of the few pagans on this site, I would challenge you, Allan, to find any place where I have 'pushed' my beliefs on someone. Sorry, gave that up when I left TWI behind a few years ago. I no longer believe in one truth that fits every human being on the planet. This is an exTWI forum. I spent twenty years in TWI, so I qualify as exTWI. I can have an opinion about TWI if I want to! I think Raf runs an all Christian EXTWI forum, perhaps you would be more comfortable there?

Our association with CFF the Organization with Clapp & Shoyer was brief--a couple emails and the free tapes--and that was a pleasant surprise to us. That part of it was positive. Then we got involved in Real Life little CFF fellowship, and it was pretty much same ol' same ol'--'we need to have Fellowship at YOUR house,'We need help moving' etc... We felt like a resource to be used and were not at all ready to have a new 'twig leader' involved in running our lives. We politely excused ourselves. We didn't find a friendship type relationship in that real life group--very definitely a leadership type relationship. Remember--some of those CFF twig coords will have had training in leadership from their LCM TWI days.

Hey Frank--that is pretty much the response we got, too, from all our 'friends.' Though a few have contacted us over the years. We were thoroughly trashed by our ol' buddy the HFC, adn the 'Tender" LC took care of those who chose to inquire about us, I heard.

Bliss, I have found that innies MUST find your decision to leave wrong.So even if you have iron clad proof of evil, they won't recognise it as true. They'll just talk around in circles that lead to stuff like 'stand with the Ministry through good times and bad' kind of stuff. They won't believe internet proof. Heck, they don't even know that it wasn't a 'one time affair'. The One True Ministry Of God wouldn't lie to them! You don't owe anyone an explanation. You can tell them you had good reasons... I've told an innie or two what happened to us, they acknowledged that it happened, they know the leadershi+ involved play politics and power games--but it didn't happen to THEM. Somehow, they were blessed(implying that we somehow deserved the crap due to our believing.) We found out we had very few real friends. Hope I'm not dampening your desire to get out! But it is not a bad idea to start reconciling with family and old friends, if you've left them behind. We found that Those folk were great blessings to us after we left and were trying to figure life out.

Well, James, there was the belief--shared by all the innies I knew in the 90s--that there was no protection outside the household of TWI. That devil spirits were everywhere, and we were who they were after. Dirty tops to your fridge could bring them into a believer's home, after all.Your walk had to be precise etc(heck, that was taught before the nineties.) There was a good friend whose child was born dead after a difficult delivery--guess why? During the fog years they didn't ABS to TWI. So while you can say no one held a gun to people's heads, fear was the motivator for not leaving during tough times. Years of responding to fear motivation, I might add. And don't forget--everything was tied to Bible verses,by the one True Ministry that brought us the Truth of the Word as it hasn't been known since the First Century. You think that wasn't confusing? The one thing that nearly stopped us from leaving was the LC asking "What about your children? You'll be outside the hedge of protection." I don't really know what exway people you are talking about, ones who take no responsibility for their actions while in the Way??? Perhaps you should give some examples. We should own what we signed up for in life? Who, exactly, signed up for abuse? Who are you scolding? I signed up for the more abundant life--Which I finally have a grip on now, having left that crap lifestyle and belief system(IMO)behind. Fruit? Rotten fruit to gag on, sure. We ended up with lots of that via TWI.

Okay James,now I'm confused. Are you saying deception wasn't really deception, because people 'really' knew what was happening to them? That being deceived was our choice? That seems like spin to me--the victim deseved to be the vidtim because they chose it.

It wasn't emphasised in our branch to'love them up' afterward, and I didn't see that practiced.Perhaps before the nineties, but all my kids were born in the nineties. Also, if a child was spanked(the one time attention getter) but was too upset, crying etc to respond with obedience, then they were to be spanked again. Because you 'didn't get their attention' and Again. And Again. My HFC was very proud of how he spent hours with some kid once(a little kid, like two) and spanked him until he obeyed. Spanked him until the child was totally exhausted.You ever have a child crying uncontrollably?--But the correct Biblical and Godly way to handle it is too keep spanking until they SHUT THE F()CK UP and obey. Obedience was all that mattered. Children were not loved by TWI, at least not where I was at. They were an inconvenience. We left TWI after a visit to my family. The difference in the way our children were loved and cared for, compared to the constant disapproval of the fellowship, was a big reason. I'm talking about little kids too--toddlers really had it rough. I worked pretty hard to keep my kids away from the fellowship. Through away the bible scripture spoons.

Adult leadership in Twi could have temper tantrums all they wanted, and act like a two year old, and they were considered'spiritual' for being so demanding and angry. That was the magic that motivated the believers.

Yes, I was one of those who believed what the Way taught me. I was “meek’ by the TWI definition.I thought it was God’s One True Household with the Truth. I supported the ministry in every way I knew to until the cracks in my life began to get too dangerous to ignore. Yup, I was one of the dumb ones Allen talks of–so was hubby, for that matter. Now I no longer support TWI. While I knew many great people over the years, most of the warm fuzzies pretty much got drowned out due to the mark and avoid doctrine. I saw how easy it was to use the Word to mangle people to get your own way. I saw far more love in my natural man family than in the TWI household, or in the ex TWI folk I contacted after we finally left( I’m not talking about any GSC folk here.)Some folk that I dearly loved who left during the 89( for the most part still big PFAl followers) exodus seemed to have an attitude of “We knew what was going on, you should have left like we did, you big dumb nut.” Warm welcome, that. Having experienced all this non love, plus the non love I saw in the church my family once belonged to, I got to thinking deep thoughts about salvation, sin, the perfection of God’s word... In my personal life I experienced several deaths and finally saw the reality of the type of care my older brother(mentally ill) required, rather than some TWI sound bite.I read lots of books. I exposed myself to non TWI ideas. I realized I didn’t want to raise my kids in a ministry or church– I wanted them to grow up and make healthy decisions about such things, not decisions based on fear of displeasing god, or getting spiritual consequences or going to hell. I wanted them to be able to recognize good people and people you can’t trust, whether they had the ‘correct’ Bible label or not. In other words–I changed! I changed a lot. I was no longer that college girl PFAL grad who loved TWI and TWI doctrine. I was someone a lot different from that girl. Why wouldn’t my decisions, thoughts, feelings etc about a ministry be different now? I’m more than twice the age of that girl. And I have to say, during the years I was ‘in’ I did not allow my thoughts to stray too far from Way beliefs, nor did I ever sit down and really think about such things. Often I was too busy doing the busy work of the ministry for much reflection, anyway.