Bramble

Hmmm. Nothing doctrinal that I can think of, being one of those 'I didn't see any baby in the bath water' folk. Don't know...learned how to make pulled pork, still do that. Like my house to be clean and uncluttered and tend to get upset when it is not--I think that is a Way thing, but I'm working on chilling out and asking for help. But my house doesn't ever like look a hotel reception room, gah! Like to be hospitable and make guests comfortable, maybe not a Way thing( My parents liked to have parties and dinners etc), but encouraged in the Way. I expect my kids to listen and do chores, homework, curfews etc but don't use the spoon (haven't since we left.) My kids are too old, anyway. There are other consequences if I need them. I'm comfortable doing public speaking, which comes in handy for my job, from all the years of running twigs and doing teachings. I can sing in public and be heard.

TWI was not structured so people had a voice of protest, or disagreement--that was against the 'likeminded'doctrine. As far as I know, people who 'took a a stand' did it with their feet running out the door, and were demonized, slandered, warned about and marked and avoided by their 'godly' friends. Lovely experience, btw.

I was an idealistic young college girl when I got in TWI. I came from a loving family and saw much of that same type of love in the early twigs I was part of. I thought TWI was going to make the world a better place. Later, hubby and I ran our own twig, and it never occured to us to be hard a$$es for Christ ...plus we were in a rural area and pretty much on our own. But in the nineties, we moved ( due to counsel from Limb co ord)into the limb city to get out of debt( sin and consequence!!) and be on semi limb staff 'where the word is hot'(we cleaned and did yard work, sheesh.) That was a whole different world, very ugly and painful. Kindness, concern for others, generosity of heart, a helping hand, celebration, fun times...those were things hubby and I learned in our families and thought were TWI attributes. We certainly learned differently.

Galen-- my husband and I were twig leaders as well for a number of years. I'm not saying this is how every twig leader acted! I am well aware there were decent people running twigs. I don't know what your area was like, but in my area by the mid ninties you were NOT a fellowship coordinator if you were a nice guy. If you weren't a pit bull, driving 'weakness' out of your fellowship, then our limb/branch leader had no use for you. Our area dropped from six fellowships to two--one run by the branch leader. These two guys had no accountability, because people were to follow their leaders, obey etc. People in the fellowships had two options--do it their way or leave. The household fellowships (not twigs anymore, that was an old wineskin) were nothing like the twig my husband and I ran for a number of years.

This was refering to a post further up where I explained the type of doctrine TWI2 had toward homosexuals. You seemed to agree with it then. Now you think differently? Seems to me you are arguing for the sake of the argument. I'm putting you on ignore. There's no point in reading your words, you never mean them, or you mean all of them.??? Why waste time with a poster who is just trying to be antagonistic.

Umm, Allan, I'm not making excuses--I'm not a Bible believer anymore, and I have made no secret of that fact. If your interpretation of the Bible leads you to beliefs that others think are unkind, unloving or unworkable, then, yup, you'll have to defend them, or keep quiet. If your way is best, shouldn't it be obvious? Shouldn't it lead to better things? I have yet to see a statement about this topic from you that shows any kind of loving regard for the homosexual believer. 'Our way or the highway, you piece of homosexual filth'(the attitude I learned in TWI2) may be one interpretation of the Bible on this subject, but I don't see how it makes anyones life better. And there are other Christian doctrines on this subject that differ from that. In TWI 2 we were taught that homosexuals were as spiritually dirty as murderers etc. Scum, lowest of the low. The lesbians I know in real life are nothing like scum. They are good people, with the same types of strengths and weaknesses you find in hetero people. Their lifestyles are not ugly and full of promiscuity and disease. They have jobs, families, friends, goals etc.

In TWI a leader could be a real jerk, but he would stand up before people, look them straight in the eye and say, I AM the man of God, this is love, I'm standing in the gap for your weak A$%. The obedient little twiggies would nod, yup, even if deep inside they were thinking, no, you are a cold hearted jerk-- they would quickly renew their mind from those thoughts. OUR LEADER claims to be thus and such, so he is. And they would endeavor to treat him like that yardstick of truth etc. In the real world a cold hearted jerk can go around saying he's the yardstick for love and truth, but if his words and actions reveal him to be a cold hearted jerk, his self promotion isn't going to work. There's no control factor to make the little people listen and agree with him. If he wants to be some yardstick for love and truth he's going to have to do the hard work to be that. I think that is a hard transition for some ex leadership. The words that drip from their mouths aren't treated like gold.

Hubby and I went to Serenity last night. We both enjoyed it very much. Hubby was surprised he liked it so much, he is not big into action adventure sci fi movies, but this was written with lost of humorous one liners, very well placed. I'm a big Joss Whedon fan and was sorry to see all his TV shows end. Hopefully he'll be back on the small screne someday!

Perhaps it is a face saving way of leaving this site, since no one seems to be loving his message. Not leaving in defeat, but leaving in horror at the darkness that is GSC...

:unsure: I thought PMs were the polite way to answer a question or make a comment that was off topic, so as not to derail a thread. Hmm. I never thought they were such big deal!

How sad that you think yourself qualified to counsel homosexuals. Or anyone else for that matter. Why don't you go back to TWI? It seems like you would fit there so well. What's that saying? Lord, protect me from your followers.

I don't know TWI 1 teachings on homosexuality, but TWI 2 had homosexuality at the bottom of the totem pole not because it is a tough sin to get out of--as far as I know they didn't think it was all that hard, just obey leadership etc, renew mind etc... Homosexuals were at the bottom of the totem pole because they were spiritual filth with all weaknesses and immoral impulses...no good in them, not to be trusted in any capacity. For example, if you had a medical provider who you thought was gay, you were opening a huge conduit for the adversary, for instance. A gay teacher could infiltrate your children with gayness...they were worthy of death.

Hmmm, if you were just defending yourself, Allan, then why did you get posting probabtion?? Bramble(who was in TWI 20yrs)

I did have two elderly JW ladies at my door, asking for one of my kids, which kind of freaked me out. In the pagan community around here kids under eighteen have to have a parental unit along for permission--not just a note. Didn't care for that, kid is only 11. Kid is not supposed to answer door for strangers, even old ladies with Bibles. Busted!

Since it is an issue: Lesbains I know--jobs and hair styles: *preschool teacher, long blond hair fixed in a variety of ways *pizza place manager/college nursing student. short gelled hair *nurse/mom, curly layered hair shoulder length *nurse/mom, blunt cut straight shoulder length, *Bartender/mom, short spiked hair *PHD mental health counselor/mom , jaw length layer natural curl * bisexual girl: bank teller/college nursing student/mom : long brown hair fixed in a variety of ways. Had boob job last year, paid by boyfriend. Very pretty amd knows it. Hmm seems like the commom theme for lesbians is Nursing Degrees. I know alot of moms because I work in preschool /childcare.

Exodus' success rate is in homosexuals staying celebate, or bi sexuals deciding to stick with the opposite sex. Their ability to change a homosexual into a heterosexual is non exsistant. Do some research! Thye change behavior, not orientation.

Um, but being lesbian didn't cause any of those health problems. All women who never bear children, for example, are at a higher risk of breast cancer. Like nuns. All women who do not regularly receive health care--for what ever reason--are at higher risk for health issues. Like poor women. Lesbianism does not cause drug abuse, cervical cancer etc. Heteros get that too. I do suspect that the way some people treat lesbians might cause stress and depression, which could lead to health issues and unhealthy coping issues like alchohal abuse. But isn't that common to all humans under stress? Nothing in that article is proof that lesbains are ill because lesbianism is evil. Being a second class citizen/being demonized certainly can cause stress. I look at the homosexuals are sinners doctrine as being a contributor to that stress and demonization.

Lesbians have health issues that Hetero women don't have??? Prove it. Back it up with your wonder link. I don't have to take your Words as gospel truth--you are not my TWI leader. The sites I googled ( Lesbian Health issues) talked about heart disease (isn't that the leading killer of women?) obesity(not a problem for hetero women?) diabetes yada yada yada. Same health issues other women face. Sheesh.

I'm sure for you, David, you do see yourself as just human like them, a sinner. As far as never being as good as the heterosexual believer: Are homosexual Christians on equal footing with heterosexual Christians? Is that really the bulk of Christianity's view? I don't think so. Homosexual Christians might be equal to heterosexual Christians, in God's eyes,( and David's) but not in many people's eyes. As long as they are homosexual--and I've seen no evidence that adult people can truly change this orientation--they are not quite equal in the eyes of most Christian churches. Aren't homosexual Christians treated differently than other ordinary sinners? They can't be ordained in many churches, can't marry their partners, (oops, I forgot, they aren't supposed to have partners, they are supposed to be alone unless they can turn into heterosexuals ). If it were truly about all men being equally sinful, sin is sin etc, then why can't a sinful but devout homosexual be a minister in many churches? Without covering or don't ask don't tell. The heterosexual ministers are sinners, also, right? But apparantly their sins aren't as bad, because they can be ministers. What churches will allow homosexual ministers or marrages. All the people are sinners, afer all.?Few-- liberal/mainstream denominations, if at all. Some sins must be worse than others. Or aren't covered by the cross of Christ or something. For most people, their sins are between them and their god. But if you are a Homosexual Christian, aren't there more people involved? People who are outraged and disaproving even though the homosexual has never done one thing to hurt that person. Seems like a very cruel and ugly doctrine to me. I guess I just don't see the love there, or anything positive for the person who actually is a homosexual, in that particular doctrine. Seems like a doctrine that builds high walls between those that are and those that aren't. Is it positive to remain celibate your entire adult life, not because that's what you desire, but because you are a homosexual and that's how to please your God and fellow Christians? Hmmm. It seems like an impossible performance hoop and a blot on the claim that the Biblical God is a loving God. IMO. Why would a loving Father set a hoop so high his child can't jump it, demand they jump it...see them fail. Live alone, no loving spouse, no sexual fulfillment...I don't call that love. But I have seen love redefined before...You're sinful, lesbian, change!...Lesbian tries but can't really change...you're sinful, lesbian, Change!...ugly circle Homosexuals can have loving realtionships/marriages, like heterosexuals. It is not all about cruising gay bars and getting diseases. I'm glad I don't have some kind of Bible doctrine system where it has to be that interpretation, or the whole Bible falls apart or something. Makes me feel bad for the homosexuals who come into contact with that type of religion. Though I can kind of see it from my childhood religion's point of view. If you suffer enough in this life, then your stint in purgatory might be shorter. Being celibate si good better than being married(or it was in the church of my childhood.)

STD's are a result of multiple partners without condoms and health tests. STD's don't care what your sexual orientation is! A lesbian coupkle who is in a monogamous sexual realtionship faces no more risk than I do, being in a faithful marriage.

Yet homosexuals can't seem to turn themselves into heterosexuals, no matter how sincere the Christianity of the homosexual's belief...even if they remain celibate for life( which seems to be the expectation of the Evangelical church with their do over groups, because they aren't getting homosexuals to turn into heterosexuals, either. They are getting Bi's to stick with the opposite sex. Lesbians and gays still have sexual feelings and thoughts that are not hetero. So every day, every hour, they are 'doing wrong' according to some beliefs. Inside they are wrong, and always will be. They will never be as good as the hetero believer. The 'we all make mistakes stuff' just isn't the same. Homosexuality is not a matter of oops I made a mistake thinking about sex with same sex, sorry. It is a matter of who a person finds sexually attractive. Even if there is tremendous strentgh of 'renewed mind', people still find some people attractive and others not attractive. The mind need not even be involved(do I need to get more graphic? We are all adults who've had sex here.) The heart goes pitty pat etc. No wonder so many homosexuals are not or do not remain Bible Believing Christians. If it is such an evil thing, then why aren't more Christian homosexuals turned into heterosexuals with their sincere desire to change?? What if your doctrine is false( not all Christians hold it), and you are expecting people to change something that they have no hope of changing?Like eye color, or height? Remeber in the OT when it was bad to be left handed? We all think that is crazy, now days. Then wouldn't your doctrine of no deliverance be doing that person great harm? Isn't that just cruel? Do you ever think it might be better to err on the side of kindness? Can you be absolutely sure of your doctrine? Especially when being wrong can cause much harm to another. If there is so much deliverance, then why aren't we seeing and hearing about it?? Why are the reparative groups now preaching celebacy as the key to a homosexual Christians walk? Why are their success( as in causing someone to switch, not the success of making people celibate) rates so abysmal? Who has ever been successful at making themselves 'find' some one sexually attractive(because say, they would be a good provider or whatever, or are a real nice guy, or Christian girls marry guys) when really they don't do it for you at all? Gritting your teeth and thinking of England does not a heterosexual make. It is just a lesbian woman forcing herself into a man's bed because someone told her she should. I say yuck to that! I would hate being forced into bed with a woman, because, gee whiz, I'm not a lesbian. PS--That is not really directed at you David. Your quote is a common thought on this subject.

One of the things we still deal with is how we deal with accidents, mistakes, unplanned happenings. In TWI 2 those were never supposed to happen, if they did, then you did something wrong. Yet they happen to everyone! Sometimes it would be an accident, like cutting your finger in the kitchen, or you get to your car in a parking lot and find your tail light is busted. One day we realized we were upset way out of proportion to the incident, and that we reacted that way all the time. We've become more realistic. Computers do need to get fixed now and then, tail lights can be replaced, we have bandaids and first aide stuff so we can use it when it is needed...Fix the problem, prevent it if you can, but why get crazed over something you couldn't know was going to happen? I think part of it deals with the old Law of Believing--since you have the nice first aid kit, you are believing etc and won't have accidents, like TWI and their firetruck.

I took Pfal in 1980, it was $200.

The twenty something lesbian couple I know quite well are both small town girls who figured out they were gay during puberty. Both went away to college where they came out, and eventually met. No victimization, they are peers. One girl has family that loves her and lots of family contact, the other has family that disowned her when she came out her freshman year. Sometimes she wishes she never mentioned it, they would just think her girlfriend was her roomie.

There are alot of articles at Religious Tolerance .org that deal with reparative thereapy ( to change a homosexual into a hetero sexual) http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_exst.htm Success seems to be not in changing the orientation( though getting a bi person to hook up with a member of the opposite sex is considered a success, too, even though they are still bi), but in the person living a celebate lifestyle.