Bramble

Heehee, Belle. Remember debt being slothfullness and hardheartedness? A month after we left we got rid of the junkerclunker and bought a nice minivan. Debt! Car Payment! Never regretted it a moment. Saved hubby from spending about a weekend a month on car repairs, no nasty surprises when something broke down... Then we got really 'lucky.' We moved to a new town and assumed the mortage on a small old house belonging to a family friend. Right before a real estate boom. We're laughing all the way to the bank about that bit of slothful indebtedness! House value went up about 50k in a year. We could sell it today for more than 3 times what we bought it for.

I was specifically talking about young teens, Cool cheff--the ones too young to drive or hold down jobs. Perhaps your neighborhood is different from mine, but I haven't seen any of the older kids in our neighborhood going out trick or treating. They have jobs and cars and go do their thing. But I've seen lots of the middle school crowd, and I don't see anything wrong with that. What are those age(12--15 or so) kids supposed to do? Stay home alone and hand out the candy?

I don't mind the older kids without costumes. My own kids all looked far older for their ages, and did so when they were in 5th and 6th grades, because they are so tall (one was 5' 7 in the sixth grade.). They felt silly dressing up, plus there is no way they'll look as cute as a 6yr old fairy princess(who's mom dressed her, she didn't have to buy it or make it herself, like lots of older kids do!). Sometimes they dressed up in costumes that other's wouldn't notice( I'm Mr. Whitaker the science teacher.) I'm always a little shocked at how so many young teens are left to their own devices, left at home alone etc because they are old enough to be on their own, but when they were 6 their parents were buying them costumes, taking pictures, planning a fun time etc. Kind of sad, I think. I took a group of young teens to some Haunted houses and tricker treating too, last night. None of them had cool costumes, but they had a blast. For kids their ages there aren't many alternatives--stay home and answer the door, or watch gory movies by yourself isn't that much fun. Older teens can drive etc, find their friends.It's kind of like Christmas but no presents because you're too old, for the young teens. Everyone complains about young teens growing up too fast, with sex and drugs etc--but they don't like it when they act like kids, either!

Cognitive dissonace: Leader: "Do this (stupid a$$) thing and you will prosper!" True Believer: (thinks--that sounds like a stupid A$$ thing to do, and will cause problems with my life.) "How will I prosper?" Leader:"Do it, scum!" All Other True Believers: "Do it, scum." True Believer:"Yes, sir, I hear and obey!" (True Believer does stupida$$ thing. He develops stupida$$ problems with his life as a result.) Leader: "Now, aren't you blessed you did the right thing? You are such a stupida$$--look at your life in shambles! You must do more of what I tell you! Think how awful your life could be without my counsel!" True Believer:"Yes, I am a stupid a$$. Thank you for all you do for me. Where would my life be without you? We would be dead in the streets." (thinks-- It looked like a stupid a$$ thing. Now I have stupid a$$ results. It must be my scum nature.Why can't I get it right! I'll try harder!) Leader:"Yes, you owe it all to me." Years later, light dawns. Ex True Believer:"That was a totally stupida$$ thing to do! DUH"

Oh--mishmash of crap--I was referring to the present Spewth doctrine of the nineties, not allTWi doctrine for all time. Present Spewth--"Obey your leadership in the Word and you will walk over the bridge to the Promised Land of the Prevailing Word and your life won't be crap." Of course, the hitch was, obeying your leadership in the Word turned your life into crap. Which pi$$ed them off. So it had to be YOUR fault, not theirs.

I don't know about percentages... I do know that we were among a group of people who left the way of the nineties due to extreme pressure from leadership. We had NOT examined any other doctrines, we didn't even know about GSC until sometime(6 months?) after we left. We did think we left the one true household of God because we just weren't able to handle the 'godly' lifestyle. Doctrine was (for us) a mishmash of crap with no answers.We know others in the nineties who left under the same type of circumstances, not because they had a better doctrine to grab onto, but because they couldn't keep up with the hoops. I don't think it was all that uncommon in TWI 2.

Halloween is a big deal for our family. Kids had a party last night, Monday they will do a tour of Haunted houses in the area, and I will go to a little pagan/Wiccan open circle and party later that night. Monday is teacher parent conferences, so no school!

It is very hard to lose a parent, adn have the other parent be in poor heqalth, too. Take care, Roy. I still pick up the phone to dial mom, tell her some little thing.

I am very aware that bad things happen, especially to elderly parents. I've buried two, plus both my in laws. Don't need the Bible to tell me folks get old and die. Your 'feelings' were not things anyone can prepare for, unless your idea of preparation is for people to flock to your faith. I see nothing positive about broadcasting such 'feelings' for others. Still don't get your point. It looks like fear motivation to me, not some kindly warning. Perhaps that is not how you meant it, or perhaps you don't recognise fear motivation.

Not trying to be mean or anything, but in my opinion dire predictions for the future often seem to be some type of fear motivation/control device to try to get people to straighten up and 'believe' and obey a particular brand of doctrine. When LCM had his big revelation about Y2K it just resulted in more control over people, more intrusion into people's private business--like what perscription meds they took, how much $$ they had saved for this big emergency... all in the guise of 'caring.' Eeww, creepy feeling.

I've never lived in a place where the parent wasn't right there with the kids. I even live in a small town, and they don't do that here! I can remember my mom dropping us off on one end of a block and we would make our way back to the car. I also remember when I was about eleven (and dressed like an Indian princess) that some drunk guy wanted a kiss and make a grab. I wasn't scared, more disgusted. Plus I was with two of my siblings.

Being gay /lesbian/bisexual can cause a great deal of confusion in a person's life while they are figuring it out. I don't think that is so hard to understand! Well, at least not too hard if you have some empathy and compassion. As for Allan--the ignore feature is super duper!

My youngest came home with a middle school rumor--Yellowstone Park is going to blow, and take out four states( ours being one of them). Well, it was supposed to happen last Saturday. SO far, so good.

I've sent hand gel pumps to school for the kid's lockers, but whether they will use them in the 3 min passing time I don't know! I think some of the small wipes would work well, might send those, too.

I sometimes wish we had left in the big purge, but we really didn't have the type of info many of you did, plus our 'nicest' corps leadership was determined to stay. It seems that many that did leave in the '89 time frame had lots of support, fellowships, continued friendships etc.

My senior year of college the job market was tight. All my good friends were heading out for teaching jobs in tiny towns throughout several western states. I myself was headed toward a half day kindergarten position ina small town in eastern Montana. I was dreading it, living in a small town full of country and western ranch folk, in a goldfish bowl where everyone knew what you were doing(no kidding--if you turned your house lights off early people asked you the next day if you were ill). And what would I do with all the time on my hands? I'd be done with work by one in the afternoon. I was depressed, looking at the future. I was still pretty upset and angry at the break up with my long time boyfriend, who was off to law school in a big, fun city. My big joy in life was to be with my friends, we followed a local band around the area(Mission Mtn Woodband) on weekends, and now they were all going to be far away. So I met these wows, all guys...they were very very sure about the class etc. Plus, um, it gave me something to do that summer after college, because I was pretty lonely by college graduation. No one else was pursuing me in any way, that was for sure, so it had to be a good thing, right. No one I knew was even left in town after graduation, most went home, but I had a job, an apartment, and I needed to move east a couple hundred miles in August and my home was clear across the state in the other direction. In about a month or so I had a new religion, a new guy, new busy activities, the Rock was cool, it was all very different from St Teresa's Catholic Church... I would say I was pretty vulnerable at that time. Also young. I wasn't really taking charge of my life, just flowing along. I wasn't looking at doctrinal superiority or anything like that. At that time I didn't care at all about doctrine, wasn't studying it, wasn't church shopping. I was really more into 'new age' stuff. There was bahai group in town, but the folks I met were rude...but the wows treated me likre their favoriet friend. TWI wasn't like a church and I sure liked being 'right' once I got through the class. It was an emotional whirlwind, nothing thought through at all on my part. When I finally did start thinking, I was married with kids and living the hoop jump lifestyle.

We were in the Bradley University area, lovely old homes. I remember that girl who stood for several years--she got into a twig in another area with a super legalist who seemed to have it in for her. I felt so bad--didn't know how to help. I did talk to the leaders wife once(I no longer lived in Illinois then) and she sounded so hard. I got no where.

Hey! We ran 4 classes in Peoria in '83-'84. I think a couple peolpe stood for at least a year. One stood for three! Most disappeared the minute it was over.

The last straw was having our private life pretty much taken away. So that's what I voted. When we left we didn't think TWI was 'off the Word.' We were pretty sure we were the ones who were off. Afterall, we'd been counseled about how awful we were for seevral years. Everything that was thrown at us ( mistakes, weak areas etc) was tied up neatly in a Bible verse or two, and repeated over and over by anyone in TWI you could talk to. We did NOT see anything clearly at that time. We did not leave nobly because we knew the Truth. We left because we were in an ugly situation, and the only way out was to leave. Period. We didn't think our marriage would survive another 'help' session from TWI leadership, and we had no one to turn to except some M&A people who were far more damaged than we were. At least they told us that the kids being in danger because we chose to walk away wasn't true. Their kids were fine. Fun Times.

I seem to have missed out on the sadist/masochist thing. I don't like pain or hurt in any way for anyone(yup, I wasn't that great at smacking with that wooden spoon!) I couldn't have carried out orders that would harm my kids. In my earliest days in TWI( 1980) I remember hearing conversations from my hubby and his wow bros about taking up weapons to protect the Word etc. Kind of freaked me out.

GSTG, The writer, Joss Whedon, is kind of known for killing off beloved characters. Makes for higher stakes, I guess.

On the subject of posters revealing the contents of private messages: In TWI2 it was nothing for a person in a leadership position to reveal to the fellowship or branch very personal issues about a person they were slandering. Slander was one of the main ways leadership was able to enforce Mark and Avoid, by painting the M&A person very black and devilish. This happened to us and many other people we knew in our branch. So if a person here at GSC is comfortable with revealing the contents, names etc of their private messages, I would suspect that they learned those type of controling habits very well in TWI. They want to make someone look bad while they look good. They want to force someone out, or into some type of pathetic obedience. Bullies were encouraged by the climate of TWI2. Seeing those type of habits pop up in posters who are now out of TWI and involved with off shoot ministries...eeww. Sad and scary. edited for spilling

I think it would be tough to be building all new relationships with siblings in mid life. For a number of years when I was in TWI I rarely spent time in any way with my siblings. Then, somewhere around '96 or so I began to see that things were so ugly in TWI, we might be forced to go. I began to repair bridges with sister and younger brother. (My older brother is severly mentally ill). We were all close as children and teens, and my younger bro and sis remained close, while I winged off with TWI. My older brother...well, he has some good days. And we remember what he was like when we were young, before the illness progressed. We finally left TWI and moved to be closer to my family. My siblings and I had to deal with the illnesses and deaths of both parents, plus take over the care of my older brother who lived with my parents most of his adult life. Not easy situations. My sis and I are best friends. We talk or visit daily, we have children around the same ages and are similar in parenting and expectations. It is a comfortable relationship, with few areas of conflict, probably because we think so much alike. When conflicts do arise(usually something about older bro), we try to reach a compromise. We agree that it is important that we spread the caretaking around so it doesn't all fall on one person's shoulders, yet we need to make exceptions for my brother who travels for his work...it can get tense at times.

Hey Oakspear and Reikilady, I don't know you two well, but your presence on GSC sure made me more comfortable here this past year or so. I've enjoyed your calm, level headed posts and also enjoyed the glimpse I had of your new relationship and marriage--heartwarming. I admired how you were able to make some real friends here, too. A few years ago I spent very little time at GSC, though back in Way dale daze and when it first moved to EZ board I was a daily lurker. I don't know myself how much longer or how much time I will spend here, since I have a home business that is quickly approaching a second job in time demands, so I will soon have to do some rearranging of my time and efforts. bBut I will look for you around the boards! Blessed be, Bramble