Bramble

My husband, who already is a big organic veggie gardener, has become very interested in whole food diets, medicinal herbs(he wants to grow more herbs) and teas. There are tons of books and websites, but we would appreciate some recommendations from people who have studied in this area. Any ideas?

To my thinking, an authority structure that involves some people obeying the high muck a mucks--and some form of negative consequences to the one who doesn't obey--is potentially dangerous.

And yet, there are plenty of people in the pagan/Wiccan communities that study Arcana, ceremonial magic, tarot, hermetics, Key of Solomen etc, spell casting, meditation, guided meditation, Eastern religions and philosophies, trance states, gnosticism, Golden Bough etc , are not Christian--and also are not abusing and destroying other people's lives in some type of controlling, manipulative way. So go figure.

The abusers I know are still in, still holding their leadership positions. I find it hard to believe that in a few short years they have changed from being cold, cruel, controling, arrogant men to be lights of the world who bring healing where ever they go. Also, if these men have changed, why haven't they reached out to those they ripped up, to try to repair the damage they've done? Wouldn't that be the right thing to do? I think you are seeing what you want to see, Thin Lizzie. I think it is not real. I can think of nothing more damaging to do to my family(other than becoming an alchoholic or a meth addict) than to go back to that. And take my kids there? I remember how hard it was to protect them and get them out mentally healthy in the first place! TWI was not a good place for kids. God might be good always, but if you stand in the middle of the freeway, you're going to get run over. Nothing to do with God. Do you really want to bring good hearted people into that organization? Don't you feel any sense of responsibilty for people? Shucks, there are splinter groups that are teaching the Way doctrine you love.The way international is NOT the only place for people to go. Good thing for the poor people who are witnessed to by TWIers, they have access to the Internet and GSC.

We saw several divorces through the mid to late nineties that hadleadership/counseling were involvement. At that time, I knew if we had to get 'counseled' for our marital or other problems, our marriage wouldn't make it. After we left we were listed for a time on the cortwright finder--and two couples who had left a few years before we did, from the same fellowship, contacted us to tell us how the HFC worked to sow division between the couple. Both those couples are still married a decade later, btw. This HFC and wife are like a cancer, destroying lives in the name of their God and ministry...still in good standing in TWI. And the local leadership above them either is in cahoots with them or just blindly does not see... I know of another couple who were their asst HFC's --like we were--who were involved in the fellowship after we left...they are divorced now, too. You would think SOMEONE would notice, but in the shut up atmosphere of TWi, these folks just carry on.

Eagle: The Way certainly taught me a lesson in how to use the Bible to control and abuse people. It redefined love into something ugly and hoop jumping. Somewhere along the way I lost my trust and enjoyment of the Bible and Christian God in general. Can't pin point when or where, expect it was a cumulation of years of stuff. To me, it screams--this is unsafe, stay away. We checked out a local splinter group and a long distance splinter group for a couple of years. I thought I should stay Way like in belief. Then we got involved with two churches, both of which were friendly and non abusive and not demanding, offered alot to their congregation. Not bad experiences at all. I just felt no sense of belonging or healing, safety or relief. I went because I thought I should stay Christian. I had a library card and used it alot. I considered the people I've known, loved, admired and hated--and could see no dividing line that put the born again Christians on the good side, and the awful people on the other. In fact, due to our long years in TWi, there were quite a few born agains on the dark side. The people who were warm, loving, healing to be around, affirming, admirable etc to me during this time were not Bible believers. I decided I didn't have to be Christian, in my experience it was not the truth I saw in life around me... I moved on.

May you find peace on your way. A few years ago I lurked at EZ board GSC, then moved on for a time--couple years, I think, then returned. My husband read it back when it was on Waydale, but hasn't read it since...

Big whapping power *zap* miracles that give glory to some guy don't move me anymore. I'm much more interested in how the poor believer who has cancer and didn't get the big power zap healing is treated. Anyone driving him to chemo? Cleaning his house, fixing him meals? Slipping him a little cash? Doubt it. That's what unbelieving earthly families are for.He's not BELIEVING enough for household help, other that doctrine, reproof and correction.. I suspect that in a culture where the power zap miracles are highly valued, then the poor believer who isn't seeing it in their life is treated even worse during their darkest times, since they are not 'believing'. Kick 'em when they're down, how sweet. It's the TWI way! NOT how I'm living the rest of my life. And Marko'malley--lovely post on your view of God and bible.

Check out TWI again? Nope. The hard hearted guys who 'wooded' us out are still in their man o' god positions. I'm responsible for my children. No way would I take them anywhere near TWI.

Eagle--LCM had some corps parents change the name of their child from Christian to something else. Craig decided in Rise and Expansion book era that since Christian was at first a derogotory term given to the believers by unbelievers, we in TWI should never use it.

oops wrong place.

Maure I don't know if you are still around GSC, but what a great post! I stayed in TWI for several years waiting for my husband to wise up. Those were some very hard years, where I felt(knew) that our leadership would count it a spiritual coup if he could get me out but keep my husband in. I spoke to hubby exactly 3 times about leaving, my doubts, discomforts. Each one of those times is memorable, because I knew that just speaking could be the end of my marriage--which really wasn't what I wanted. Once was in 1995, again in 1997 and the last time in 1999. The first two times I caved. The chat in 1997, leadership got involved, that was ugly, talk about being under suspiscion after that. The third time, in 1999, I actually had a get away plan. I knew some people, ranch owners, who could house me and the kids temporarily, and I could work in the bar they owned in a tiny town in Eastern Montana, where I once taught school, until I could get back into the school district. It wasn't a great plan, but I thought if my marriage was gone, there was no point in staying in that area...plus I hoped my husband would travel to the area to see the kids and perhaps his brain would clear, once free of leadership influence. As it turned out, the new limb coordinator was a jerk, and showed that quality a little too clearly to my husband more than once(I didn't know about this, it was one of those Way negatives we didn't speak about.) Then we went to visit my dad, who was a great guy and at that time he was terminally ill. It was a very sweet visit, despite the sad situation. We had not been treated with love or kindness in along time, and somehow my crazy unbelieving earthly family took more delight in us and our children than anyone in TWI. It was quite a contrast to our regular lifestye, we had leisure time, no schedule, no disapproval, our kids could be kids... So when the next 'confrontation' came up( they came up every couple of months, it seemed) and I said I didn't want to go through it again, hubby could go without me, I was done, I was resolved to head out of town if hubby decided to divorce me. It was horrible and scary, and I honestly did not know what the outcome would be...except, one way or the other, my kids and I would be out of that. Hubby called the leadership to tell them we wouldn't be back--left him scrambling because I was supposed to teach that night at HF. Hubby said he sounded stunned. We unplugged the phone, drew the drapes closed. A few days later we did have an ugly chat with the limb coord--one of those 'your kids will be in danger' talks...but we were done.

Back in the early eighties I remember an interim corps girl(11th corps I think) tell me there was a passage in the gospels where Jesus came to a town and the women ministered to him sexually.She never showed me the passage and I did try to find it with my Youngs...I figured it was something someone of her corps busddies had researched. Now I'm not so sure! Maybe it was a line--she was a cute girl.

Heehee. I didn't know you were catholic, dmiller. Hmm. What else can I rant about? Must check other forums.

But, dmiller, we are not talking about positive mental outlooks in life here. In actual real life I'm a pretty chipper gal, full of plans and dreams. I have no problem with positive mental outlooks in life. When I meet really negative people I tend to wonder if they are depressed or ill. We are talking about bad or even evil experiences in TWI. I think to gloss over them, or stop yourself from speaking about them, or to renew your mind not to even think about them and replace those thoughts with happy thoughts is not how people work through this stuff. You said yourself people need to vent. I'm sure there are people on this forum who have some severe issues from TWI or from their own mental issues or combination therof, that bleed over into their real life and they do require more help than this message board can provide. I would hope that they have loving family and friends and not just this message board to help them get the help they need. Telling about personal bad experiences with TWI I think is helpful to other people who are leaving TWI or recently left. They WERE bad experiences, and many of us had our brains so screwed around, we thought WE were the ones who were messed up. At the time we experienced them we were afraid to name them as bad experinces--because it is the Way, and the Way=the Word. Instead, we internally labeled ourselves as slothful or hardhearted or unbelieving etc, obediently following the leader to that conclusion, even though it was like a mental death to do it. Now is a chance to finally get it straight. See it honestly for what it was. I don't think discussing the crapolla of TWI has anything to do with positive mental outlooks in living life. This forum is for some of us the only place where we can voice these thoughts where anyone will have a chance of understanding--people who didn't live it think we're NUTS, because of the stuff we put up with and believed. Some ex way who left at an earlier, happier time think those things, too, I've noticed. I think these negative discussions have to do with dealing with trauma in life--which is something I sure didn't learn in TWI. TWi was all--get over it. Being 'bitter' about an evil done to you was actually worse than doing the evil thing to your brother or sister in Christ, because emotions didn't count in TWI. Oh and that Bible verse about bitter being a root(so similar to the conduit for the adversary teaching.) In TWI2 we were taught (as in repetitious yuck teachings) that holding negative thoughts in your brain made 'grooves' in your brain that became 'conduits for the adversary'. Devil spirits. You know how that doctrine really worked? It kept people from thinking about bad things that were actually happening to them, to see a situation as what it actually was. It kept people in some distorted trust pattern toward leaders who were deserving of no trust. And that just let them get hurt more the next time. Hushing up was a great advantage to the abusers, controllers and manipulaters. I see no reason to hush. I see no one preventing posters from starting God is Great threads.

*Dmiller--I knew you were funnin.' Wow, I forget that many TWI doctrine people think that talking negatives about anything, not just the Way, is some type of evil and will lead to Bad things in their life. Negative words lead to negative believing, negative happenings etc. Okay, now I remember. Culture shock. *Mary Poppins, sorry I misunderstood your first post. It looked like blanket reproof to me, not comfort. I my experience, keeping silent about evil was a greater evil and lead to much hurt.Once we started acknowledging it (our life in TWI), facing it and deciding it was wrong and cruel, life got much better. My spouse and I not speaking any negatives about TWI to each other for years certainly kept us in alot longer than we should have stayed. People coming out of TWI in the nineties were so schooled to be silent that I think they need to be encouraged to find their voice, even if what they have to say is ugly and negative. I think eventually people level out.

Powerfilled, not one of my posts was directed at you, so I don't see how we could have gotten off on the wrong foot! You may quote all the scripture you wish. There are many Christians on this site who will enjoy it. I have not asked you to tip toe around me and I was not looking for a Christian/non Christain spar. If you, in the future, directed some scripture toward me, Bramble, for some reason, I would probably just tell you I am not a Bible believer. My first post was directed at what I perceived to be a reproof post about 'just quit talking about the negatives', the post by Mary Poppins. I think I stated pretty clearly what I thought--I do not agree that we should hush up about the negatives of TWI. And as far as people 'dwelling ' on the negatives, how would anyone knowe that from reading a message board? Perhaps their 'dwelling' is 20 minutes a day when they are on GSC. We only see a small portion of people's lives here. Heck one of these posters has like 7 kids, GSC is probably the only times she sits down! My second post was in light of the Y'alls--which you were not a part of-- which I know was the posters being humorous. However, I did feel I should speak up because Yule/winter solstice is a spiritually meaningful and serious religious holiday to some people, like Christmas or Pentacost is to some Christains. SOME people might be offended, I really wasn't but thought I'd mention it. Some Christians, for instance, are offended by xmass. It was off topic, sorry. Bramble(as in --prickly)

Um, just so ya know, Yule/Winter Solstice is an actual holiday celebrated by some non Christains, with spiritual/religious meaning to them. My family celebrated Yule from sundown last night to sundown today, as did a small group of folk I consider friends...some people I know might be a tad insulted by the Y'all stuff, because it seems to be making fun of someone elses beliefs...

We don't have many ornaments, we only had a few trees while in TWI and I decorated those with bows and cookies. We a have lot of lights for Yule, and I like woodsy/craftsy ornaments. I also like cardinals, and received many cardinal ornaments our second year out of TWI, when some co workers found out I didn't a have ornaments. I also recieved some gorgeous hand made crocheted angels that I treasure. Every ornament was a gift, I've never bought any. My kids like to make that applesauce cinnamon dough clay to make cookie ornaments from, and I love the rich smell and color. It hasn't been so long since my parents passed away, we have all those ornaments in storage but(siblings and I ) decided we weren't ready to get them out and divided up, yet.

I think each person should decide for themselves how long to dwell on their negative TWI experiences, it isn't anyone else's business. Everyone is different, everyone had different experiences, everyone processes things differently. Some people went though mild experiences, some went through very damaging experiences. Some people can't move on at this point, they have to actually work through their painful experiences and put them to rest. Ignoring them and refusing to think or speak of them doesn't make them go away. I am actually rather sensitive about being told to do something, or to being reproved being told what I say or do isn't 'good enough'...I doubt I'm the only one. Your post sounded like reproof to me and seemed inappropriate, since some of the posters on this site are not Christian. It is not a requirement for posting here to be Christian, or pfal like in belief.

Merry Yule! We started celebrating last night at sundown, having a nice supper tonight and assembing gifts and homemade goodies for family and friends. We'll join family for Merry Christmas, too.

I honestly don't think there is anything wrong with dwelling on the evils of TWi on an ex TWI forum. I think people need to know what happened. I think there are still people who were crushed by TWI legalism, and just discovering NOW that they were less evil than those that were crushing them, M&A ing them, slurring their whole lives publically among their former friends and believers... I think the 'Think no evil, don't dwell on negatives, renew your mind' stuff did a great deal to keep people in bondage, because they thought thinking or speaking about a negative situation was wrong. So stuff got covered up, and the bullies and legalists just got more power, while good people cowered in silence, due to that doctrine. Merry Yule

Why? Because the Way realized it's error in dismissing the Christain Hell for keeping people in line--so a doctrine was divised to make Hell on earth(devil spirit possession), and keep people in line. IMHO.

Haha-- I do use 'Go ahead' as a dare! Never realized it until this thread.