Bramble

What time is it: 10:10am 2. Name: Bramble 3. Nickname: Hmmm 4. Piercings: both ears 5. Recent Movie: Rolling Kansas 6. Eye color: dark brown 7. Place of birth: Covina, CA 8. Favorite food: crab 9. Ever been toilet papering? yes, in highschool 10. Love someone so much it made you cry? Yes Ever hate someone so much it made you cry? yes 11. Been in a car accident: Landed in the ditch 3 times before I was 22. Icy roads, Montana speedster. Waited 6 hours for a tow the last time in a ditch on the Seely Swan ( lovely, curvy two lane road around big lakes in northern Montana)because there was only one tow truck for a two hundred mile stretch, and I was the last person who landed in a ditch that day. Good thing I had my daddy's survival kit--candles, matches, candy, wool blanket and a cb. I had a flare but didn't need to use it. 12. Favorite day of the week: Sunday--chores are done, I goof off. 13. Favorite restaurants: Poor Boys 14. Favorite Flower: Purple Coneflower 15. Favorite sport to watch: um??? 16. Favorite Drink: Dr Pepper with vanilla syrup 17. Favorite ice cream: Death By Chocolate 18. Disney or Warner Brothers: WB 19. Favorite fast food restaurant: Taco John 20. What color is your bedroom carpet: green 21. How many times you failed your driver's test? 0 22. Winter, summer, spring or fall: Fall. I like the pretty colors. 23. Which store would you choose to Max out your credit card: Barnes and Noble 4. What do you like to do when you are most bored: play on computer 25. Bedtime: 9:30 26. Favorite TV shows: Invasion 27. Last person you went to dinner with: my family 28. Ford or Chevy: Ford 29. What are you listening to right now? The dryer 30. How many tattoos do you have: none 31. How many pets do you own: 4 cats, one dog 32. Which came first the chicken or the chicken egg? I never get into creation discussions.

Wafer Not--Some mothers! When one of my kids was in 6th grade she went to the roller rink with a neighbor girl, big church going family( this girl took my kid to church one Sunday but chastised her for not wearing a dress in the House of God.) Anyway, there is a certain corner in the locker area that is out of view of the roller skating monitors, who are generally on the floor during songs. Neighbor girl was sneaking back there and making out with boys, different boys. My kid was uncomfortable with the situation ( they were 12)gave me a call, so I called neighbor girl's mother, saying I was on my way to pick up the kids an hour early, and explained the situation. Neighbor mom--"Oh, my Sadie is so popular with the boys. I'll pick her up when the skate session is over." Not one tiny bit upset or concerned. So Sadie got another hour or so of making out. Later, during basket ball season, neighbor mom was at every game and invited my kid to come shoot hoops at their house. No way. I wondered what Sadie might be doing in the garage!

Mark and Avoid as we saw it practiced (and experienced) involves a great amount of slander--the more friends and loved ones you had in a branch or area, the more evil stuff they have to say about you. This is, of course, to keep Innies from contacting you--makes them afraid they'll get devil spirits etc. I suspect they have a list of former members on computers at HQ--the limb coordinator was always faxing stuff, but since there was no real work of the ministry going on...

The most humiliating reproof we received started with "We just want to help you." Edited to add-- it never really helped.

My fresh blood comment was in the nature that you, going to a TWI fellowship, are not a whole lot different than new, never been Way person going to a fellowship. You would be very welcome. Did you have to wait for a corps leader to approve you to go back to a fellowship, Rickyg? No? That right there puts you in a different category of returnee than many here would face. You are far more welcome, you are not perceived as a 'problem' believer. Most of us could not just show up at a fellowship and be welcome. There would be phone calls, meetings...there would be a whole different attitude than what you have faced. Far less welcoming. I wonder if it would be so easy for your parents to return to a fellowship?

Rickyg--I am too old to go to a cool college fellowship. The fellowship I would be directed to would be a normal one. Hubby and I have a 'history' in twi. We were fellowship coords, Adv class grags etc in the nineties who got in big trouble because of our 'believing.' When we left TWI we were publically slandered--every item we had been reproved or counseled about for a decade was vented and exagerated, we were Marked and avoided for being possessed, probably in such an extra nasty way because we were well liked by many people. Probably a dozen Innies in that branch/limb had been in our fellowship for several years--they knew us well. People remember that-- I know this because not too long ago I had a long conversation with an old friend, still in. We would be watched for any sign of weakness or perceived weakness. We would have to go through counseling with the very leadership involved that did the smear job and who were so much into our business not that many years ago.There is NO Way they would be wrong in their assessment of our lives, we would always be the ones in the wrong, the ones who need to prove ourselves. That's how Way Leadership works. We would not be 'fresh blood' like you are. No clean slate. We couldn't just slip into some sweet little fellowship. Many people are in the same position with TWI as we are. If they desire to do Way doctrine, they find one of the off shoot ministires, like CFF.

The Way leaders who did so much dirt to my husband and I are STILL leaders in TWI. In fact, I heard one guy got promoted. Gosh, he must be a true spiritual leader! Hubby and I were not the only people they messed with--these guys have left a trail of misery that goes back at least a decade. To take myself back to that, or even worse, to take my children to that--would be unloving and irrepsonsible on my part. It would be like handing my kids over to abusers. The 'rightly divided Word' can't possibly be worth that price.

Unworthy...broken fellowship...consequences of sin, unbelief... In my childhood I was raised Roman Catholic, the old fashioned type, where Irish priests and nuns taught that only Catholics would go to heaven, and dying with a mortal sin, like missing Mass, would send you straight to hell. Scary stuff for me, I was the ulta pleaser type little girl, not a rebellious bone in there, and I always felt I was one bus accident away from hell. Then TWI. Sheesh. At first the no hell doctrine seemed like great freedom. but then I came to understand that I was in control through my believing of all kinds of stuff, an absolute fantasy. How many thousands of things happened during my twenty some years of 'believing' that didn't go the right way, or popped up unexpectedly--but somehow I was responsible for these negative things, I should have know? Or something. How many times in later years did we go through all kinds of reproof crap because of our 'believing'? I left TWI doctrine several years ago ( in 2001 I chose to do a Year and a day of pagan /Wiccan study), but it still lingers with its unworthy, broken fellowship refrains and impossible standards. Not too long ago I was diagnosed with a chronic illness, one I've probably had a decade or more, one I've never heard of (I don't think my family doctor had heard of it either, haha.) I spent a week trying to figure how I got it before sanity arrived. Who knows? The medical establishment doesn't know, you can't take a certain vitamin and avoid it. Some people get it, some don't...like so many things in life. So once again I have to remind myself that I no longer waste energy trying to figure out the whys of things I can't control, and try to hoist the old brain around to something positive and helpful.

I suspect it was when I first listen and considered--'You know what killed that little boy...' I think that was the first step down.

~Raf--about being f--ups and leaving TWI~ We didn't leave thinking we were 'doing the Word' that LCM and TWI were wrong and we were taking some kind of stand for the truth of the Word. We literally fled, because something was wrong with us. No matter how sincerely we tried to do the Present Truth, we could not make it work. We thought it was because we were weak, slothful, hardhearted, unfaithful...we were certainly told that enough times. We left finacially poorer, physically in poorer health, a marriage that was shakier than it had ever been, confused, defeated. Turning our lives over to the local leadership--which is about the situation we faced, was a horror we couldn't face. Underlying this was a great deal of anger at ourselves and each other--what was wrong with us, why couldn't we make it work? We did not leave feeling we were sons of God with all power, righteous, justified etc. Nothing like that. The M&A folk we contacted had been leadership we once loved and respected, who left under truly gruesome circumstances. Our main concern was the safety of our children, and they were able to reassure us that our kids would be okay, would thrive. The part Waydale and GSC played in helping us see where the real problems came from was a revelation..

We actually heard about Waydale the week we left TWI, from some M&A people we contacted( contacting them and getting a car loan were about our first two actions of freedom.) We didn't get a computer for several months, and during that short time we felt so isolated. I told an old wow sis about what had happened in the past year, and her attitude was how could we be so crazy as to put up with that stuff, which really didn't help me unravel anything at all. Later we read Way Dale and the first GSC, and realized we weren't the big f-ups we had been thinking we were.

All of our kids have used intruments--trumpet, trombone and clarinet. We had them checked out at a local music store(which also does repairs, the trumpet needed a small cork). We spent no more than $150 an instrument. We got the trombone from ebay, the teacher suggested we look for good used brass, not new--I guess some new are less quality. It arrived used but in great condition. Trombone player is now playing bass trombone??? in the school band and loves it, it has more valves and stuff. We have looked into the price of a used one but they are very expensive, even used. We've decided if child decides to play in college we will make the bass a gift towards the end of high school, since the teacher has one for 'borrow' ( band teacher has quite a private collection), and my kid is the only one who plays it. Our clarinet player is thinking about a switch to oboe. Used rentals through the school district are more expensive than what we spent to buy, and not always great quality. We've been told that rarer intruments do lend toward scholarships etc, and the trumpet player has really been encouraged to learn high notes, since that is a valuable skill with trumpet not all players can do.

In the nineties all you had to do to be posessed was not obey the leadership quick enough.

What I mainly remember about this time frame is that it was ' sweet,' following the mass exodus. I had an innie contact me recently to tell me how 'sweet' and tender the ministry is now--they were in our twig way back in the sweet times...waxed nostalgic about these very years. I can say it was that same way in the very early nineties around where we were. People gave each other a break, no confrontation, no ABS required, no minimum twig attendance. People in our fellowship had lots of contact with believers who had left TWI recently, many got tapes etc from Geer and from the Way. Most of the people in our twig were married with kids. About half were Advanced class grads or Wow vets, some had no interest in either. We all were very concerned that the Word would be available for our kids, we had a terrific children's fellowship. I believe things would have stayed positive and healthy in that little twig without the interference of leadership and the new policies that rained down from HQ. My hubby was the TC, he has never been a controlling type, we were hospitable and loved having the twig in our home, loved doing meals, picnics etc.

Insurgent's post about how crazy the use of words became reminded me about how crazy raising children became. It was always confusing. Bring them to Fellowship. Don't bring them to fellowship. Spank the crap out of them--oops, that disrupts my pearl of a teaching on the recent LCM wayrag article. So, beat the crap out of them at home with pretend fellowships, so they can sit through my important teachings. (These are little kids, age 3 and under.) It's okay to leave a marks on their skin. It's not okay to leave a mark. Spank therm in public. Oh, no, don't spank them in public. Provide boundaries, like play yards and gates. Don't provide boundaries like that--spank them! Ugh. No matter what you did, you were wrong. The best way to raise small children in the nineties was to keep them as far away from leadership as possible at all times. They did NOT like small children, unless they were cute enough to use in a witnessing situation. Children were nothing but a hindrance, requiring time, money and attention

The leadership that was so awful and controling to my family is still in place. These men exhibited malice and no love or spiritual understanding, all in the name of TWI. And it wasn't a one time mistake--their attitudes were around for Years What changes have taken place that assure that systemic control issues won't return under the guise of 'follow your leadership'? Isn't it still who you know--If I know the LC will back me, than I don't have to let the BC push me around-- lifestyle? I'm raising children. The last place I would take them is the Way International, so they can get chewed up in the next 'obey your leadership' round. Why throw my children, who I love, to dogs that will rend and tear them? I am not insane!

In TWI we called those transition years the FOG years. Then came Craig's mighty revelation--the GalationTapes/Leadership tapes.

Heehee Ex! Ahh, an inheritance? That explains so much, like why they didn't ahve the budget Book of Inspectable Spending!

Eagle, we were 'counseled' that our medical debt--I had some complications following a birth, and living on one income with little ones at home, finances were really tight--were the result of either hardheartedness or slothfullness. We--gasp--didn't make it to any Advanced class special, where were our spiritual priorities etc. Since we had a mortgage AND lived in an outlying area( a place way corps might visit once a year) far from the big city where the Word was HOT due to the presence of Way Corps, it was deemed slothfulness. Selling the house would open doors for God to poor on the blessings etc, since we would be doing the godly thing. Yada Yada. It didn't open any doors of God's blessing at all.

I see TWI 2 much as Catcup does. In the late eighties, early ninties we were TC in a remote area. While we knew there was alot of upheaval around, we just kept having out little twig, etc. People came or didn't as they pleased, some ABSed, some never did, most had mortgages, kids, decent lives... Around 93 the big get out of debt push meant we could no longer run the twig--we had a mortgage and medical bills, signs of baaaad believing. So then, seven families no longer had a twig! We were all encouraged to sell our homes and move into the big city. We did so, a couple of families decided to commute to a fellowship, many long hours. All of those people were forced out of TWI between 93 and 95 or so...they had been in TWi for a long time, too. After 93, it seemed like there was no time to breathe. Constant things we had to do to prove how loyal we were. Loyal to God, that is, because the ministry IS the Word...

I had a phone call from an innie not too long ago--still trying to figure out the stuff that happened to us, years ago, that made us walk away. Innie talked like it was yesterday. It was like time moves more slowly in TWI land. For me, like a hundred significant things have happened since then. Maybe a thousand.

There's a transcript: http://www.drphil.com/shows/show/650 Poor woman.

Ugh, does this bring up memories. the two wing back chairs, the bot pic on the doily... Your way home should look like no one actually lives there. I kept novels (yes, I never did quit reading) in a pantry cupboard and only had way books on our actual book shelves. Now we have about a dozen book shelves, full of real books!

I thought the glimpse into their marriage was interesting. I never spend hundreds of dollars that we haven't discussed first. Can't even imagine doing that. Plus, in the nineties, in TWI, we had all these budgets n stuff. Guess they didn't have to do all that.

Thanks, Rejoice!