Bramble

I think church leaders, like police officers, or school teachers or government officials should have checks and balances of power. Why should we trust a person with any aspect of our lives if there are no standards they are to live up to, and no way to see if they are living up to it? Way leaders had one standard--obey me. Denominational churches have voting rights, including votes that can oust a bad minister. They have grievance procedures. TWI had nothing, except luck--the luck of some creep leader being moved to a new area, or the luck of having a good buddy in a higher position of authority than the creep leader. Or maybe, if you were really lucky, someone else would screw up so badly all the creep leader's focus would be on them, and you could breathe for a week or two. TWI's leadership system encouraged bullies. They could slander and intimidate in the name of God, and they did. I do think most Christian groups are smarter than that. But we in TWI refused to see any wisdom in the practices of other Christians, and we paid for our arrogance.

Amazingrace-- In TWI we were taught an illusion, that we had control over situations-and people-that we do not have. We were supposed to have control over everything. That mother's fear is what killed the little boy--somehow her fear made another person step on the gas instead of the brakes, or get drunk and drive or whatever, or made the little boy run out between parked cars. How could one person's fear get inside someone elses mind and body and cause them to kill a child? How many prayers were really just trying to manipulate another person into giving us what we wanted? we wanted control--over our bosses, over our landlords, neighbors...other believers. I don't know when you left TWI, but in the nineties you were held responsible for all types of things. Your rental house had lousy carpet--it's your believing! Your child has an ear infection--its your believing! Whenever something didn't go right, it was time to take someone apart, find the fear. I don't think life is that simple. I think there are many things we have no control over, especially other people.

I don't think fear is a bad thing. I think it is a natual warning system and when it pops up the situation needs thought. In TWI fear was looked at as an anxiety disorder or something--as if there is nothing to fear, it's just all in your crazy natural man mind. But there are things to be feared, there are dangerous situations, there are things a person should prepare for, or take precautions about, or get away from. Part of the law of believing was about fear becoming real--so people supressed fears--inner warning systems. How many of us were so confused about bad treatment or stupid advice by leadership because our internal warning systems were shut down? Mr. High Mucky Mucky can't be being a jerk, he's a man of Gawd, it must be me that isn't seeing this correctly... If something makes me fearful or anxious, I pay attention. I no longer assume it is false, something to sway me from the Word. Perhaps there is information I need, or an action I need to take.

Yes, needs acidic soil. Ours is alkaline. I ordered the seeds on line(maybe from ebay.) We also bought a booklet online--which where we learned about our soil and water sitch.

There's a copy of the gospel of Judas online: http://www9.nationalgeographic.com/lostgos...spelofJudas.pdf

Wow, I can't believe I read this, I need to go to the library. Or therapy. Mike, if your message is so important, shouldn't you quit wasting your time on this forum, where people interupt your teaching with comments etc, and set out to write the revelation down in an orderly manner? There are free websites you could then post it on. You could post links and never have to engage in dialogue. Wouldn't that make more sense?

Have a wonderful year!

Stevia is great. We tried to grow it but we have the wrong pH. Can't grow blueberries, either. But if I lived in the midwest or east, I would definitly have it in my garden!

The message...looking back ( I haven't seen the video for a decade) it seems that it was all about the cool leader and the devil. God and Jesus--just not that important!

I have the obsessive stalker of Temple Lady on ignore, but I gather he is still doing his thing. I suspect that his real beef about Mormons is the fact they continue to grow, and families stick with the Church for generations--grandparents can expect to see their grandkids raised in the Mormon church. While TWI and TWI off shoots are struggling to keep their members, and their kids are evaporating as soon as possible. Envy.

Don't worry about the list Amazingrace. There's whole foods type store around here with lots of literature, I'll pop in there. We use Splenda alot since my husband is diabetic. It tastes just like sugar to me.

I'm tapering off oral steroids right now. Hopefully I can stay off or have short term/inhaled steroids through hay fever season, as long as the breathing is good. In July I'll do a chest xray. If that is good, then we continue with short term as needed for breathing. If that is bad(scarring or more and bigger growths), then either back on steroids long term or move up to immune suppressing drugs like imuran or methetrexate. In my favor, I have a low scarring factor. Average time until remission is two years. The main thing is to prevent the scarring of the lungs, which causes permanent damage to breathing capacity. So far I'm good. I'm kind of at the point where the side effects of the steroids are about as bad as the current effects of the disease. And that is progress!

I can't say I've ever seen one of these type of threads end in any positive way.Years ago I followed the old Agnostics at the back table thread. Whew! But it was an eye opener. Since one of the defining doctrines of Christianity is that it is the only way, then all other ways are wrong, or worse(devilish etc). Lack of respect from the one wayers for those who choose to believe differently seems common (not saying that anyone on this thread has been disrespectful.) Then there is the whole witnessing thing about trying to change another's beliefs to your own...These type of threads eventually get ugly.But that is just my opinion based on what I've seen. Perhaps this thread will be different I can understand not knowing...I don't think humans are capable of truly understanding spirit. It is hard for me to understand the certainty people hold, that 'my way is the right and true way for every human on earth.' To me it seems absurd, alien...though I once held that belief myself.

The change to Way beliefs happened very quickly. I was a senior in college and had had a tough year--the Big boyfriend breakup, then Replacement boyfriend got a girl pregnant--much drama there! The job market was tight, the only job I could find was teaching kindergarten in Rosebud, Montana or working in the boom town Gillette, Wyoming...very depressing. SO the wows--all guys-- with all their enthusiasm and certainty( and attention) found a willing person. I had no strongly held religious beliefs, it was easy to adopt PFAL. Years later, the move away from PFAL/TWI doctrine was much slower, taking a number of years...there were no people encouraging me or discouraging me in matters of belief...pretty much me and a book, or internet. But the thing that fueled the second change was the sheer misery of those last years in TWI, wehich was far worse than what I'd experienced that last year in college.

This morning the thought of salmon for breakfast makes me feel queasy. Maybe some cream of wheat later...or a banana.

Bramble - Don't apologize for your belief or point of view. *I am used to many people being horribly offended that you have chosen a different belief than their own. This thread isn't to tear anyone down or try to change anyone - just more to get information, really. I respect others beliefs - even if it's not in any diety or higher power at all. *That is refreshing! Question for you: Do you feel your life is better without God or just without The Way, religion, etc.? *I feel my life is far better than it once was. For all my efforts, being the 'good girl' type, Christianity never worked for me as it did for others. I think it was the wrong path for me. As far as religion... As a small box to live in, full of commands and demands imposed by others, with dire consequences, yes, I have problems with that. Groups tend to leave me pretty cold anyway. Post TWI truama maybe. But as far as meaningful ritual/meditation/prayer/ symbolism that results in inspiration, or comfort or celebration, that makes life richer I think.

Thanks, Amazingrace. I'll do some searching on the internet. My inflamation is of the ' take these heavy duty steroids and you can breathe almost normally' variety but I'm thinking diet can help or hinder. I do have a book that suggests lots of vitamin c and distilled water with good sea salt added(in small quantites). Since the water tastes weird I make it into blueberry tea

I'm not agnostic, but I am not Christian... 20 yrs in TWI, wow, Twig coord, Children's fellowship coord for years...but the end result of my association with TWI was bondage. The lowest point of my life. I could do nothing right. The things that I would expect God to protect--marriage, family--were the very things being attacked--from inside the Church/fellowship/ministry. There was no miracle, there was no power, no prince on a white horse, just the gritty realization that this way of life did not work for me and mine. It was harmful. It was chipping away at the things I held most dear. It was somwething to escape. Speaking in tongues did not change things. What finally changed things was a cruel man finally showed his true self to my husband, verifying things I had been saying over the years.(I was one of those who stayed in because spouse didn't want to leave.) We did alot of 'witnessing' those last couple of years IN with the fellowship. I would meet women, moms, through my kids and think I needed to 'witness' to them. What a joke. Those moms had lives I could only envy, and some where rank unbelievers. Hmmm. Life without all the way doctrine is much sweeter. Sorry, that is my personal opinion. Perhaps agnostics had experiences somewhat like that...

We got a computer in 2000, some months after leaving TWI. I read the old GSC on EZboard faithfully. it was very healing to hear other stories like our own. A year or so later I drifted away some, though I would check once a week or so. I was going through some huge transitions in my own life and my time was limited. A year or two ago I got involved again on GSC, because no one who wasn't there seems to be able to really 'get' it. I remember you CW as being one of the warmest on the board. Thanks. As far as not meeting people face to face...doesn't bother me. There is only so much time and money for travel, we all have important people in our lives. It doesn't make the words we've read any less healing.

On the change in attitude toward community service-- I can remember in the the late nineties being confronted and reproved for being involved in the school parent organization. Good not best type situation. It met once a month and did a couple family/school activities/fundraisers a year. But that was too much! But-- college scholorship committees look at community service when studying candidate's applications nowdays. Also, high school National Honor Society members do some community service as part of their qualification for memebership.

Canned salmon might be wild. I sure new lot of young people in Montana who would travel to Alaska to work in fish canneries or on fishing boats. Is your anti inflammatory diet on the net anywhere? I have an inflamatory health situation and would like to find out more about it. I guess a person could bake the salmon the night before and just microwave. Duh.

Hubby and I had three clergy we considered friends, like the guy who did our wedding, a couple others we thought were great men of God in our Limb. These guys stayed in TWI through the nineties, though only one is still in now. Since we left we have had contact with old believer friends from the area we lived in who left TWI in the nineties, also. Of course, being good wafers, we marked and avoided these folks, as expected, while we were in, but since then we have contacted a few, and others have found us. Very sad. While these clergy were nice and friendly to hubby and I, everyone of them was doing dirt in some way to other believers. It was horribly shocking to hear of their cruelties, commands, betrayals etc to people we knew as good and decent believers in our area/limb. Back in the day, we believed the clergy du jour about why so and so left TWI due to their own spiritual weaknesses etc, only to find out later that they were bullied out. And ya know, the exact thing happened to us just a couple of years later.

If you google chris geer you get no glowing reports. The article he read must have been about fantasy gamers, because 'wizard' and 'warlock' are not used in the pagan community that I've ever heard about. In fact, warlock is an insult.

I googled it. It does look interesting. But look at that breakfast! That's a lot of cooking and eating in the early am before work! http://www.freedieting.com/perricone.htm I'm on the dash diet--low sodium. I'll read the book when it hits my library.

Gosh, CW! I can't do it. I did spend a couple of years investigating mainstream churches, but nothing really stuck. All my Bible background was TWI. I was raised RC, but left the RC church at 18 or so. Things I learned of value prior to TWI were pretty much from my family and not tied to Bibe verses, though they may well be in there. Anyway, two lists. Clutter on the top of your fridge brings devil spirits into your home A leader's suggestion is tanatamount to a command Small children under age three need to be spanked alot to teach them instant obedience Lack of abundant sharing can make your kids get sick Don't make a mess and leave it for others to clean. Don't lie. Work hard. Take care of each other.