Bramble

Watered Garden, we experienced that type of atmosphere in the mid to late nineties. Prior to that we lived in a remote area and most of our contact with corps was when we traveled to a meeting etc. I had some complications with a pregnancy and delivery which left us with hefty medical bills.We were counseled to sell our house and move to the 'hot' limb city, and we did so. Stupidest decision we ever made. We ended up paying capital gains on our sale and the cheapest decent rental we found was more expensive than our mortgage payment had been. We had big city crime, traffic and overcrowded schools, too. It did not help us get rid of the med bills!

This is very much the same type of atmosphere we knew.

Heehee. Thanks for the job offer, Allan, but I just started a new job which has fabulous benefits--something that is not so easy to find in a small town, so I am not looking for a career change. The health insurance alone will save us thousands of dollars annually, and the dental plan includes orthodontics! Plus I have no medical background. My dad died in hospice from a terminal illness( my dad was a disabled vet, exposed to radiation during WW2, his health was never the same). He was in hospice for a month prior to his death, and I can't praise those people enough. His death was peaceful and not a pain ridden tortuous one, which it could have been. Two of his hospice nurses came to his funeral because they cared for him and the family. Dancer's pm to me had nothing to do with the hospice movement or any type of 'recruitment.' Sheesh. And I don't feel I need to be 'saved'. Scary thought, actually. Look where it took me the last time I let someone 'save' me!

Chas, I am somewhere in the pagan/Wiccan realm. But agnostic, as in 'I don't know' all the answers etc, works for me, too. I know what I have experienced and can't promise it would be the same for any one else. I tend to think of spiritual belief as being like finger prints--every one's are different.

I can't really say I lived without being under a law in TWI. My experience was very legalistic. Grace was only on paper, not in actual living. It seems to me now that the mainstream churches had far more grace in their doctrine than we in TWI did. I don't know about the others on this thread, but I don't follow a revealed doctrine...no set law. There is a common framework of practices, symbology etc, but unverified personal gnossis is common. Sinful, unworthy, unrighteous incomplete man who needs a savior is not part of it. Divinity is seen as transcendent and immanent, living within man and creation already.

We had more of a 'classic' situation. I was one who wanted out and waited for spouse. Our HFC had no use for me, but loved hubby. Hubby and I often split for weeknight HFs because we had young school kids and there was no way to get them to bed before 10 or so on a HFC night. Hubby would get the ol' buddy treatment and I would get jumped when I was by myself. Over and Over. This situation went on for a couple of years(maybe longer) and worsened when I told hubby I wanted to leave TWI, and hubby went to the HFC for 'wise' counsel. That was the only time hubby went to the HFC about anything between us. I think if it had become a pattern, our marriage would have been over. So something about that counsel cautioned hubby...I might ask him about that sometime because I don't know all the details. It was a painful time. Hubby was sure I was just being too sensitive until he caught the tail end of a phone call where I got reamed over a stupid little detail my Hubby(and wives had no decision making abilties at this time, I was honestly just following orders) had me call the HFC to change. HFC was yelling, calling me a liar etc...after that alot of little things fell into place for hubby and we left. Oh--later we got in touch with several other couples who had been in that HF. They had the same pattern--liked hubby, hated the wives. One of those couples did divorce.

In TWI ritual was denigrated--even though TWI used very structured rituals( HF, communion). Since then I have found ritual rich in symbology and healing and can't imagine trying to live a spirituality which tries to erase it as a form of expression.

I'm reading this thread with interest. I know very little about Judaism so the information is all new to me. :)

Here's a link to an Interfaith dialogue on the large scale: http://www.cjnews.com/viewarticle.asp?id=9540 I thought it was interesting in light of this thread.

I found this an intersting observation in light of my TWI experiences.

I'm not a very trusting person at this time in my life, though I was very much too trusting in my past. I am sure TWI 2 wrung that out of me. I have a good marriage, my sister and two brothers and a couple cousins, people I've known all my life, who I trust(well, not my mentally ill brother, that is more of a relationship in which I'm a caretaker.) I have co wrkers I like and some online buddies I enjoy. I have one very good friend who I discuss religion issues with, and a couple others who are almost as close--people I go out for coffee with etc. As far as GSC, I do have a wall up that I am comfortable behind. Only a couple posters know who I really am, they are people of good hearts who I knew during difficult times and have known me for 10 or more years. We are not close but I have warm memories of them and their kind hearts. I do find it comforting to visit this board because TWI is still a huge issue in my mind. I enjoy many people on this board, and have found many post thoughtful and even healing posts.

Gosh, dancing and Sir guess, don't you know that you are supposed to obey your spiritual overseer(Allan) without question? A spiritual overseer doesn't have to prove anything or give any explanation! I guess you all missed out on the valuable lessons taught in TWI 2.

Here's more info on the artist. http://www.brandejs.ca/portfolio5/gp01.php

Allan w is an obsessive stalker. He finds someone who's beliefs are different than his own, and follows them everywhere, posting nastiness about those people, not about the topic being posted about. He lies and misquotes people.That is ALL he does. Last month he stalked Temple Lady, this month it's dancing and Sir guess, next month it'll be some one else. Doctrinal is the easiest place for him to find his victims.

http://www.genpets.com/features.php It looks so human, and only lives 1 or 3 years. I'm hoping it is a hoax.

I think you are right about motivation. Also, if you are on the attack, you keep others around you defensive and unlikely to attack you by exposing and magnifying your weaknesses. What an ugly way to live!

But not Wiccans or pagans/neopagans!

skipC-- Another thing you might not realize: nothing you might say is in any kind of confidence when dealing with TWI folk. They tattle to leadership all the time. That's how they keep the 'household' clean.

Hi Seth, I have an older brother who is mentally ill. My siblings and I oversee his care. His psychiatrist has said, that considering the extent of his illness, his quality of life is pretty good. We know it will never be great. He lived with my parents for many years until their deaths, which was a hugely difficult time for him. Things are a little better now. He does find some simple pleasure in life, which is always good to see. Take care! I hope you find support, friendships and some joy in life.

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I've been thinking about this thread... Spoiler cut for those that don't want their brains sullied with non Christian thought: s s s s s s s s s Now this is not a belief I figured out or authored myself--I read about it in books etc and thought about it alot. One of the concepts I ran into early in exploration of pagan type beliefs is a pretty widely held belief in pagan/Wiccan circles, As Above, So Below --the natural world reflects the spiritual. In the natural world a thriving meadow would be one with diverse plants, animals, insects, succeeding, reproducing etc. A sick meadow would be one where few things grow, overtaken by spotted knapweed or something. Many pagans, myself included, apply this concept to human spirituality. Human spiritually is healthy when there is a diversity of spiritual /religious thought and choices. So, interfaith dialogue is always difficult when there are those that believe that only Their Way is acceptable, especially when evil is attributed to other's who have different beliefs. Coming out of TWI, we are all familiar with this type of belief. One choice and only one choice seems right to one individual, while another person might see that as a belief that leads toward an unhealthy society with less diversity and choices for individuals.

Well, as a non Christian parent, I would expect a movie from a Christian movie maker to be evangelical in nature, so I would not be at all shocked if it was. Kids in non Christian families are always being invited to this church or that. A Jehovah's Witness lady knows one of my kids by name and leaves that specific child literature. Do I let my kids attend church if they are invited? Usually. There are a couple hard sell type churches they cannot attend around here. They also can't attend Wiccan groups or pagan circles around here--non take children under 18, anyway. Pagan beliefs don't need a group to be practiced. Do my kids know what I think about one way religions? Yes. I have told them I don't want them involved in a church that separates them from family. Hubby and I have talked about TWI(my kids don't remember very much).

Heehee. Maybe being a self willed bitch means you willed yourself to be kind, warm and tender hearted in the midst of chaos and cruel practices instead of turning into a cold word machine.

We experienced the 'divide and conquor' actions, too. Our HFC was actually quite good at it, there are several couples OUT that were in his fellowship. One couple is divorced though. Our last year IN we saw several divorces, of couples who had been married for years, former Twig coords etc. One spouse was the 'godly' one, and one spouse ended up M&A and possessed(according to leadership). I often felt that the head of our household was not my husband, but our HFC. What a mess! Thanks for sharing, Oakspear, and for making it available, Pawtucket.

What a bummer! I have to work on 666.