Bramble

I've been reding Raven Grimassi, too. He is a frequent poster on Mysticwicks and I was impressed with how he handled critical posters, so I bought one of his books. I plan to buy more. I think his name is a 'craft' name. Hey, I wanna craft name.

Man, Oakspear, I was trying NOT to have that song run through my brain for the evening!

One thing that led to so much confusion IMO was the belief that we were to answer to and obey leadership about any detail they brought up. Other adults don't live that way--getting their homes and budgets inspected, being told to do specific things with children, like proper bedtimes etc. Leaders had far too much power over people's daily lives and developed egos.(I'm your spiritual overseer!) It was easy for them to dog some one they didn't like, unless that disliked person had a good personal friend or family in a higher leadership ranking.

Children should have no inconvenient needs and should act like they've been sedated at all times. Except when we don't want them to, for a photo opp or something to show case the ministry.

Article from Christianity Today. com The Witches Voice( online Magazine) has a long summary article here

Actually, Carl, as far as I know from reading, Internet and conversing with Wiccans, the whole 'old religion' theory about Wicca is out of date. Most now know it was started in the 1940s.Ronald Hutton'sTriumph of the Moon, a history of Wicca, argues that there were no actual pagan survivals ( Gerald Gardner, founder of Wicca claimed he was initiated by a surviving coven). Hutton did confirm that 'Old Dorothy' did live in the area in which Gardener 's coven lived. Recently, though, others are beginning to question Hutton's conclusions, and I suspect another book will come out one day that will excite the pagan world.. IMO most Wiccans think Wicca is a new religion based on pre Christian European myth, gods etc. And some believe the goddess is at work. And some believe the Aeon of the Christian fish(Pisces) is waning, and the time of the water bearer(Aquarius)is related to the revived goddess. And some believe...

I guess I think a death sentance is a little severe for possibly carrying an std. Is that why they killed the baby boys???

Funny thing about the goddess article--if I had been comfortable in the fellowship, surrounded by friends and loved ones, happy, blessed etc instead of run ragged and confused, I think I would never have picked up that first book. I probably would have headed to the mystery section, which was the only fiction I read back then(okay, because LCM read mysteries.) So, in a way, TWI surrounded me with an environment that lacked basic things I needed, and opened doors for me to move on....

Yes, we did discuss The Mists of Avalon a long time ago. I too loved those books. Quote, Abigail : 'Hmmmm, I wonder if that sense of disconnectedness is in part due to our melting pot society and the fact that so may of us 3rd generation and beyond people have so little culture that we can call our own?' In my experience in the pagan/Wiccan world, heritage and nationality does seem to be a big factor. If people are of Irish descent, they look at Celtic myths etc. I'm such a mutt, I could look at nearly any European country, and some SW Native American tribes, too... BTW--Looked through the phone book. It is much harder to find Jewish resources in my area of the world than Christian or pagan. In my area there's two Christian book stores, one Catholic bookstore, the Wal Mart carries LDS books, there are two New Age stores (crystals, statues, jewelry etc) and one pagan store (herbs and books.) Nothing Jewish. The local congregational church is where a small synagog meets, and also where the UU church meets. I wonder if they ever have activities with all three congregations togehter. That might be interesting.

It was going to the library and reading Woman who Run with Wolves( mentioned in the Her story Way Mag article) that sent me on a reading journey. After that I moved on to other feminist lit, then myths, goddess lit etc... Yup, I had a library card and knew how to use it.

Well, how was moses so different in his actions? Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." (Numbers 31:7-18, KJV) I don't get it.

hey-- I meant Sarah Mclachlan naming the L ilith Faire. I think the name was used in a political sense rather than spiritual, that's all. Yes, i do remember Rachel hiding idols ...

I might add that while witches/Wiccans may practice trancing, etc, there seem to be few incidences of demonic or satanic experiences. Probably because many don't believe in the devil/satan and plan safety and protection measures at the start, as their beliefs set. The incidences I've heard about where pretty much Christian dabblers or hallucinogenic users, or both. My husband had an unfriendly encounter with a ghost when he was a teen playing with a quija board--and tripping on LSD. A pagan type explained to me that playing with a quija board is like posting an annoucement in a crowded bar with your home address, and inviiting anyone in, anytime, because the door is always unlocked. Foolhardy.

I think Lilith in the Lilith Fair was more of a symbol used by feminists. There is a feminist goddess movement/religion that is pretty political. Most pagans I know are of the Wiccan background who believe in balance, female/male dieties, light/dark, and some consider the goddess witches/movement to be some type of monotheist religion, replacing the monotheistic male god with a female, with a lack of balance either way. Lilith is seen as a dark goddess, like Kali or Hecate.She is seen as a demon in Sumerian myth also. I don't think the Lilith Fair namer was thinking of that aspect and was instead using her as a symbol of feminine power. Some pagans think it foolhardy to mess with a dark goddess. But then, if Sarah had used Brigit or Diana or Freya, also good 'symbols' of feminine power, she might have p.o.ed a large number of her fans... I think that the Kaballah connection to the New Age movement came through older occult sources, like ceremonial magic, and writings, like the Key of Solomen. Traditional tarot cards have occult Kabballah symbology. And isn't the word lullaby a derivation of a Jewish banishing prayer, to banish Lilith from male infants? I think I read that somewhere. The New Age Kabbalah connection is probably why much of what you've been posting, Abigail, sounds quite familiiar to me.

Do parents keep score? No--we know our kids weak areas and try to strengthen them. Not every bad decision is from 'evil' intent, many times it is from lack of experience or lack of thinking things through. Consequences may include more oversight from the parent rather than punishment. Teaching kids that hard work, including following necessary directions, brings rewards can be done positively. I can't really see a loving relationship being a score keeping one. That said, I do believe that people get what they earn in life, though not necessary in this life. But I don't think it is a God who passes out the rewards or consequences, just the way the system works--like seeds planted, grow.

Um, there was a witnessing directive to witness to people with jobs, cars and all their teeth. We left right before we were supposed to do a finacial meeting with out HFC, with all our records, budget book etc. We were still in debt after years of teaching on being debt free. Well, rack up major med bills, and you might be making some payments for a few years. Its better than bankruptcy or getting sued!. Our finances are healthy now!

How bizarre, a bunch of fifty year olds sitting around a tape on spelling basics. Could it be more boring? Why not teach some fun crafts. Well, at least when they hit Greasepot they'll be prepared to write with believing confidence. I can imagine it being pushed in fellowship and every one joining in because the BOT thinks 'we all need these subjects' to be our best for God yadayadayuck.

I was never involved in the Way Corps, but I did go to college in the seventies. The term 'date rape' wasn't something I'd heard in those years( designated driver was another unheard of term back then too). I knew lots of girls who got drunk, or had something slipped in a drink and ended up being date raped, though that was not a term we used where I went to school. I remember being warned by older college girls to stay away from parties on certain floors of the men's dorms(oh--drinking age was 18, too) because they had a 'scoreboard' for freshman girls. They would offer lots of free drinks then haul the drunk girl off to a dorm room. I knew two girls who lost their virginity under really humiliating circumstances, one at a party, one at an outdoor concert--in public view--, and the idea of pressing charges never once came up. Where were their friends,? Bobbi Jo and I wondered. That was our big concern. My best friend and I did have something slipped in our drinks once. Usually we were careful, we partied with a group of friends and watched out for each other. Lucky for us we had her older sister and sis's boy friend around. At the time we were flirting with some guys from England, though there's no proof they dropped anything in our drinks. We didn't call the police--didn't occur to us. But my dad did call the next day, after my friend's older sister talked us into getting to a doctor, just in case, since we were still out of it...police said there was lots of that happening. I

Hi sportsfan. Your post sounds eerily similar to our story. In for twenty...but our FC was not a great guy, though many of the people in the area were good folk. We, too, got 'reproof' for being too involved in school activities etc. I guess I thought a parent should be involved in the things their children are part of--silly me! Kind of a weird deal--keep your kids isolated/let your kids be a witness/don't give their activities your time/move the word/don't let other people raise your children...It was all pretty confusing, but the one thing we could be sure about was our decisions being WRONG. As far as right doctrine--it IS confusing. Look at how many different doctrines there are. Plenty of people will tell you that their doctrine is the correct one, in some cases the only possible right one, with dire consequences if you choose the wrong one. My advice would be to take things slow and pick what resonates for you, not what others tell you must be the right one.

I hear you, exie. I have three in puberty. I'm 49.

Hmmm, if you can't find anything negative to jump some one about--but you really want to jump them-- then just make stuff up! Let you imagination rove freely. Truth, heart, intent--all those mean nothing when compared to the thoughts in a leader's brain, which come straight from gawd. Follow LCM's example. It was an often used leadership tactic in the nineties. Tom and Dave, you must have missed leadership training in the nineties! Then it would all be clear to you. Allan, on the other hand, was a good student. The important thing is to continue to put the heat on someone. That's how men o' gawd defend PFAL, LCM style.

I heard that a pastor (a guest pastor) the church I was speaking of really liked was Disciple of Christ, a completely different denomination. I don't know how they will mend the breech at this point. It looks like a split in the future to me. The other big concern was age--most of the church members were elderly, with only about a fifth of the church members being under fifty. The culture of the church was that much of the business of the church was done by volunteers who did not work day jobs, the retirees.Where would that church be in ten years? Who would replace the volunteers? I have to admit one (not all) of the reasons I left was because of of the constant need to be on this committee or do that job. Working full time, three kids...how much time did I have? It seemed too much, especially since I was having doubts etc about spiritual things in my life.

I have been finger printed and gone through state and national FBI checks for jobs in childcare.It was a state requirement, handled through DFS. In fact, I did a home child care center for several years and had to have my husband run through the same process. I think the laws differ from state to state. Our schools keep a book of sexual preditor flyers that are sent to mailing addresses in a neighborhood when a convicted sexual preditor moves in. We can access it in the school office. Schools should certainly do background checks.

The last church I was involved in ( 3 yrs ago) was PCusa. I got the impression that it was a church with a huge schism on the way. The pastor was an ultra liberal--she talked about 'sacred space' and other stuff I recognised from pagan readings. Most of the congregation was elderly, and conservative--they didn't much care for the pastor. But in the congregation was a group of ultra liberal women, mostly in their thirties, who liked the pastor and were wanting change. The pastor moved on to a bigger church about the time I left...but the congregation had a heck of a time finding another, because the pastors coming out of seminary were so liberal, and the conservatives in the church were looking for a conservative. They were without a pastor for a year, and I've heard that now they have another liberal woman pastor... I've thought that in the next twenty years or so, we might see the liberal liturgicals form their own church, and leave the PCusa, Episcopol and Church of Christ( the liberal one, not the other one)...there are some pretty liberal Methodists out there, too.

I will soon be fifty, also. I had kids late in life and I will have kids in the house for several years to come, so that hasn't changed yet. Both my parents have been gone for a few years, they died quite close together time wise. Life has been one big change after another it seems--some changes I made, like my religion and my job, some changes have happened, like health stuff, that I am trying to deal with as positively as possible. My husband is quite a few years older than I so sometimes that makes me nervous, thinking fo the possible future with out him. One thing that I embraced after leaving TWI was to quit being everyone's 'good' girl and working my whole life away to achieve some one elses goal for my life. My goals, such as they are, may seem odd to others, but what the heck. I still keep my priorities and responsibilities where they need to be, but outside of that I am free to make my own decisions.