Bramble

I had lots of trouble last winter/spring, to the point where I was having short term memory loss and speech halts due to not enough sleep. The doc tried sleeping pills for a few weeks to see if they would reset my natural sleep rythym, didn't work. Then she tried a depression medication, and it worked with in a couple weeks--even though I wasn't feeling particularly melancholy or depressed in any emotional sense--just felt tired and achy. Now I have a normal sleep pattern and I'm careful to keep to a schedule (no naps or sleeping in on weekends.)

There is alot happening around Samhain. The weekend before there is a teen caravan/party to the Haunted House sites in the area, big fun, and most of them are for charity. Saturday night there is a 'Witches Ball' type party, but I am not planning on going, though I'm sure it will be really fun(and $). Two friends and I plan to get together--my good friend just got custody of her diabetic grandchild and is not able to leave the child with a sitter, so she is hosting and we are having our own little 'do.' She is Dianic, not Wiccan,so that will be interesting. On Samhain there is an open circle, quite late after trick or treating, we'll see how my stamina holds out! What are you and Reiki Lady doing?

Okay pond, you've held forth and witnessed your view. Unbelievers will burn to ash, but humans aren't the enemy and it is all about love and if we don't believe it it is because we're channel surfing or full of strife or something else bad. I didn't think anybody was here to witness, I thought it was a discussion. So now you can shake the dust off your feet and move on. In a doctrinal forum there will be questioning, even endless questioning and strife. It is the nature of the forum. No one is here to be spoon fed the acceptable truth and just accept it because you believe it to be true. That's why it is a discussion forum, not a 'go here to be a true believer' forum.

I have not said the bible is worthless, pond, so don't attribute that to me. I'm questioning. There are a myriad of Christian doctrnes all based on the same Bible, not all Christians see unbelievers getting eternal damnation. It does not look like a loving or even particularly healthy doctrine to me, nor have you showed me the greatness and necessity of it from your Bible in any way that makes sense. Accepting Jesus does not mean I have to accept the doctrine that unbeliever will burn to ash.The 'this is the way it is just accept it' is something I don't have to do, nor do I belive that it is true.

Yes, pond, I know . Twenty years in TWI, twig coord, yeah, I remember the doctrine. I'm not talking about choosing Jesus, which according to TWI I already did and so am 'born again'. I'm talking about hell and end times beliefs where the unbelievers 'get it'. It's a choice to believe that, too. I'm actually surprised to find so many ex TWI's have embraced the hell/eternally punished doctrine. I would have thought the freedom of being free from it would be a strong belief, and the unbeliever simply having no more life( ala TWI) is certainly more merciful than eternal damnation etc. Of course, the born agains aren't worried for themselves, and I guess there is a certain outlook that unbelievers are evil, enemies etc.

Johniam, back in my first brush with TWI, the lack of hellfire was a huge influence for why I got into TWI...to be free of that doctrine/fear etc was an enormously freeing thing. Later on though, TWI figured out they needed the fear motivation to keep people hopping, so then we got the whole devil spirit possesion hell on earth view emphasised. Fear is a powerful motivator. It is not one I respect in people or groups who use it to motivate, though I'm learning to respect my inner warning signals

How could Jesus possibly have died for all, when there are those who will burn to ash? For all to have a chance? The punishment--burning eternally in hell or what ever--because, in this world of millions of beliefs, they picked the wrong one? Seems like a harsh and unloving punishment to me, especially from a loving father. I think it is fear motivation, to keep people in a certain doctrinal frame work. Get rid of the fear motivation, then people have to erally examine their beliefs, not just accept them. Anything can be called love or justice, but we get to decide if it is so. Some of us have seen some pretty ugly things called 'love.' BTW, doctrine doesn't mean only Bible research doctrine, with Greek lexicons etc. There can be doctrine with no Holy Book, no scriptures, or different approaches other than the biblical research style taught in TWI. doc·trine (dŏk'trĭn) n. A principle or body of principles presented for acceptance or belief, as by a religious, political, scientific, or philosophic group; dogma. A rule or principle of law, especially when established by precedent. A statement of official government policy, especially in foreign affairs and military strategy. Archaic. Something taught; a teaching.

Good questions, Stayed Too Long. Seems to me if everyone became persuaded that the true Christian doctrine was for all the unbelievers to be burned in hell, things might become a little difficult for those unbelievers before the grim reaper's visit. If unbelievers are the enemies of God, why not just clean things up a little around here. Keep them from asking hard questions, or influencing the youth... plus there's all that history in the OT of wiping out the unbelievers. Heck they even killed babies, and that was love and justice, too...stoopid unbelievers just can't see it spiritually. Look at the contempt some people around here have had dished out at them by the 'true doctrine' believers. Imagine if those 'true believers' ran the army, the courts, the jails... Rah denominations,yay schisms!

Theymust have been commissioned at the anniversary.

I am not fighting twinky, just trying to say something about what I think and why. What looks simple and clear on one side of the fence may not look the same on the other.

Gosh, did ya forget how it works? In TWI, your life should be perfect and blessed so that you have no hurt or unmet needs--that shows that you are acceptable as a believer. If you do have hurt or unmet needs, then you are supposed to ignore them and/or hide them so that you still look perfect on the outside. Whining is unheard of--unless you are a high muckymuck and don't like the smell of onions or something. But then, you don't whine about it, you scream--that shows that you are spiritually on top of things and it is some one elses unbelieving problem that is bringing you, the good believer, down.

It is easier to see and believe that from an insider's perspective than from someone on the outside looking at Christianity. Some how you heard through the noise, while other's haven't, so you must be rewarded for that, and other's punished? Because you( Christian's ) were somehow better and more ...what? It sounds alot like LUCK. The Christian God throws his one and only way into a storm and somehow people are supposed to catch as it flies by? Or risk eternal what have you? What if you catch the wrong one? Like TWI. Or one of the other hundreds of Christian doctrines. Or -gasp-, a non Christian one? Those folks are out of luck, made a bad coice, no eternityfor them...seems a little petty and unmerciful to me. It's not like its a clear choice--Christians=good, non Christians=bad.

I really appreciate the posts on this thread that have been so thought provoking. Allen is not here to participate, he is here to persecute. Let's not let him turn this thread into an Allen thread. Ignore him, please.

How can God expect people to look around at life and people and see that Christianity is the only clear true wonderful path? And Christians the only worthy people? Are people just supposed to 'know'? It seems to be set up for people to fail. Or maybe some people are favored and given some kind of sign, like Paul? Even in the Christian Church there are disagreements about who gets into heaven and who doesn't, there is no one definitive Christian doctrine. There is only what makes sense to you the individual, and what you accept to be true. So why does one person or one group have more say about Salvation, heaven etc? Maybe a wise god understands that humans can't know everything about spiritual matters. Most of the worst people I've ever known were 'new creations.' Their super duper new creation getting them into heaven is disgusting to me, and not a doctrine I will ever again believe in.

That's kind of like the Way wedding vows 'according to thy Word' which I guess can mean anything you want it too, including servicing some man o' God who has needs.

I haven't read that book, but I do know that there were many underworld goddesses, like Hecate. My understanding was that many were more guides and that the Christian fire and brimstone idea wasn't part of it. Some mother/earth goddesses also had an underworld aspect--they helped you out of your mother's womb and into the womb of the earth at your death. The Norse had a goddess named Hel who oversaw the place where those didn't live good lives went, instead of to Asgaard, which I've read in places was where the early Christians came up with the Hell doctrine, though I've never investigated that. I don't know if those in Hel's realm-- it was a cold place, not burning --could be reincarnated. Most modern pagans I know believe that your karma or the law of returns follows you into the next life. Wiccans usually believe there is a time of reflection called Summerland, where you may meet your family/ancestors. As above so below--life on earth reflects the life above, what is important here is important there, family. Since I spent so many years in a manipulating cult, I figure I was a haughty, ego driven, manipulating jerk in my last life. Hopefully, lesson learned!

Agree. I would add--another sure sign of religions to avoid are those that expect obedience to church leaders.

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies, and thank you, Allan,(heehee, I wasn't going to say a word, Oakspear) for illustrating my point. Sir Guess, your post on the shared stories, yes I can see that. Human history has always been full of turmoil, wars, droughts, famine, disease, heartbreak. We all desire to control our lives, to avoid the bad things...but in the end there are things that happen that are far beyond our control. A rescue story does give people hope. I think there is a story in the pagan community that serves that same purpose, the !00th monkey story... the age of Aquarius, the waterbearer pouring out spiritual knowledge...it is all about a better world in the future. I sometimes wonder if Jesus didn't come with a message that few were able to understand--I'm including myself in there--, that involved spiritual growth...but people couldn't receive it and so turned it into authoritarian rule bound systems they understood

The whole' those unbelievers are gonna get it' rejoicing, the gruesome deaths for the ones who didn't pick the right god at the right time, viewing others with different beliefs as enemies..and hell. Why does that appeal to people? What motivates people to believe those things? How do they reconcile it with love or justce? We had an interesting experience with the Left Behind books--you can't tell me that is not fear motivation! Needless to say, my teen isn't visiting THAT families church anymore. When I was a little girl an old Irish nun told us in no uncertain terms that non catholics went to hell. Whew was I ever lucky! But too bad about my neighbor Lori, they are Congregational...but even as a seven year old I had some compassion. In TWI there was no compassion, at least not after the first few years...I see other Christians who seem to see all the world as a devilish place and I wonder what they get out of it. Does it really make their lives more full and meaningful, bring them closer to their God? Do they sleep better at night, have more success in life? I do not get it.

I don't know what reflection has to do with Biblical love, but the reflection of love does make sense in Way World. They are into conditional 'love'. Think of how many people the current Way believers have 'thrown away' in their life times. How many want to get into a deep caring friendship etc with someone they'll have to M&A in a couple of years? They must stay inside thier own tiny group, reflecting the status quo. They don't go out of their way to help anyone, unless it is mandated by leadership. Reproof and correction can be given freely, but some people(wives) need to be careful about even giving that. Love is not a shining bright active thing that transforms or changes lives. Love is a reflection of what the hierachy of leadership has deemed suitable, and everyone does the same acceptable actions called love. You don't want to stand out or be different than the group in Way world.

Greg--unbelievers thrown into the lake of fire is not Way doctrine on afterlive. Haven't you read Dr. W's book on Are the Dead Alive Now? Over and Over? I still say that is a pretty big doctrinal goof for a wafer to make. Oakspear--there will be apple goodness at my house this weekend!

Hit a nerve, hmmm? So, greg, why did you jump on my timing if it wasn't really a problem? Why is my answer blurred because others have answered before? Or are you just lashing out at someone who -gasp- had something unflattering to say about your definition(uh, you mentor's definition) If you'll notice the quote I started my post with, it was from the very first post--you mentor's definition. That's what I posted about. How do you know what I can and can't understand? And tell me again about HELL? Because in my twenty years in TWI, hell was not a way doctrine.That's a pretty big doctrinal goof for a wafer. Maybe you are not way or way like at all? Or maybe you are someone's new babe in the Word--and they threw you in here to take the heat for them? Niiiice Ahhhh, charity. Hand in hand with deception. Hmmm, I guess you really are in the Way.

Gosh, greg, I didn't know GSC was putting time limits on replies. Is it wrong to come late to a discussion? Because you made your big reveal, I'm supposed to shaddup? Since this definition isn't really yours, you can't answer? When did way doctrine ever teach hell? Hmmm. But, yeah, it's pretty much what I thought. There is no charity outside the true believer group. Maybe your mentor should answer. Maybe your mentor should have sucked it up and posted himself. Maybe you should have told him 'do it yourself.' Oh, wait. Can't talk like that to a mentor, probably.

I'm skeptical that there is any real interest in profiting nonbelievers--I think that is just stuck in there to sound 'nice.' TWI isn't known for showing unconditional love even in its tight little household of like minders, who know they have to hop to it or else. Nonbelievers? Those possessed scum who we look down our godly noses at? I suspect this means something like 'Sharing manifestations so the unbelievers will obey our words and take the class yadayada.' I know there are Christians with the service to others attitude truly going on, but I would be surprised to find it in a Way group. Giving just to bless--not where TWI is, I don't think.

My opinion--man's greatest spiritual problem is believing that their own belief is the only true belief for all mankind, and unbelievers deserve to be punished.