Bramble

To be honest, Trust aand Obey, I've seen about the same types of prayers or spells work and not work since I left Christianity. And sometimes wonderful things happen,a dn sometimes horrible things happen. I have not seen where being a Christian gives you an edge in life. I'm not exactly sure what mental assent is, though I know what TWI thought--it was BAD.. I always thought it meant telling yourself what you were told to believe, even though deep inside you didn't, and you were reluctant to act on it. I have to say, I only act on those things I'm not at all reluctant to do, when it comes to spiritual matters. I find that has brought alot of peace. To me faith has to do with the way you live...most people I've met who are really concerned about such things live their lives a certain way, according to their beliefs.

Right now we have thread where one poster is trying to prove that another posters faith/religion is wrong. There is no concrete evidence that any religion or doctrine is THE ONE. There is only belief and faith. We can look at the example of the lives of the people living a certain faith and draw conclusions. Christians call that a witness, right? There is a term some people use--unverified personal gnosis. It is what happens inside, when a person finds, chooses a religion/belief. Mine is different than some one else, but then, I'm a different person, with a different life history, abilities yadayada. An individual, with an individual take on spiritual matters. Inside our heads, we make these decisions alone. Even if there are people pressuring, or convincing or denigrating or witnessing etc, in the end it all comes down to what is inside us. I think the view that all people should think alike, believe alike is a false view of humanity's Spiritual nature. It is trying to control and regulate something we can't even understand fully...

I was wow with another woman and two guys. Guess what--the guys did not have to do a lick of housework. Our corps co ord thought it was good practice for my wow sis and I, since we were going to get married. My wow sis cleaned houses for her jobs and wiggled out of most of the cleaning,so guess who got to clean house for three other adults(all were much older than I, also.) It was a great deal for them.

Didn't we just have an 'Allan W hates Mormons' Thread? Why yes, we did. It was the one where Temple Lady mopped the floor with Allan W--all the while being polite! Yeah...

Whether it is self published or not, if it's marketing goal is to eek money out of TWI believers, then in my mind it is just one more way TWI leadership use the little people for their own gain. Think about it--if some little believer wanted to wrtie a book, they'd probably be reproved for how they spend their time! I have no problem with pen names. I write fiction and use one myself, as a degree of separation from the public. Anyone who buys one of my books will see my real, legal name on the copyright. However, you can google my real name and come up with nothing. If you google my pen name then you come up with my website, myspace, reviews, forum comments, all sorts of stuff that make me easy to stalk, but that are also good for promo and marketing. Which is why I don't offer my pen name here, or links to my website. Not that I don't trust ya all. I don't trust the crazies who inhabit TWI land. If Jackie is a writer who wants to use her talents and see some success in the real world, not the TWI manipulated world, then more power to her. In fact, I feel a little sorry for her because it is not only easy to find out her real name, it wouldn't take too much effort to haul out the TWI cult scandal stuff--and YA/ children's writers need that squeeky clean image if they want to be invited to schools and libraries. If she were ever to make it big, she might have to do some pr to explain some ugly stories about her past. And publishers want 'easy' authors, not embarassing ones.

She has a cat? My, how things have changed since the LCM days. Cats get possesed real easy, doncha know.

Kit, thanks for sharing. That was lovely and made alot of sense. Waysider--I liked that slogan and have seen thwt happen many times.

Our area quit doing baby dedications in the nineties. I suspect tithad to do with the whole 'kids are such a blight on the fellowship' attitude. They quit doing children's fellowship, too.

Giilian, you're killing me---maybe they've mellowed now that they're old. Heehee too funny!! I thought they were maybe forties?

Many small publishing companies use pod publishers(print on demand) rather than do print runs of several thousand dollars in their own shop. A big print run only pays if you also have a book distributer like Ingrams that can get your book on shelves. An author with a small pub can get print books but has to have a way of distributing them, which might be to contact local booksellers themself, and deliver the books themselves. POD books tend to be half sheet size rather than mass market paperback size, so look odd if the book is short, and they tend to be more expensive than mass market, so are a harder sell. A vanity published hardback with a hefty price tag?--The author better have stellar reviews and some contest wins if they want to sell. Many book stores do carry a local or state author area. Big bookstores like Barnes and Nobles take such a high percentage in such cases that the author won't make money through that store, but it could be seen as promotion. If it is a vanity press, then she had to pay for the editing etc herself, some also have to get their own book cover designs or pay a fee, and pay a fee for the ISBN#. Many vanity pubs will publish without editing at all, which is why they are not looked on favorably in the industry. An editor also helps with formatting and style, which can make a difference in the print quality and varies from place to place. It is difficult for mid list pubbed authors to make much money, and the smaller the pub, less marketing offered etc, the less an author is likely to make. An author who does not have a decent website and marketing plan involving promo is not looked at as being a professional in today's pub and agent world. Perhaps her marketing plan is TWI bookstore.

Shoes out the window for good luck? I thought you needed to have a Nutcracker (the little man type) and a bowl of nuts in your house for good luck!

It doesn't sound like an initiation in any of the covens I know about. They do not use Christian symbols like the cross or Christian diety/adversaries like Satan. You'd think if 'black' witchcraft was so popular there would be websites. Pagans love the internet. Why aren't they found on the Witche's Voice http://www.witchvox.com/ or Mysticwicks? http://www.mysticwicks.com/ or the Cauldron? http://www.ecauldron.net/ The Black Sabbath/mass sold their souls to satan witch covens makes a good story, but if you want actual information you might try http://www.religioustolerance.org/ Of course, the websites I've linked won't be ones that prime you up to think of witches as scary enemies. You'll have to go to Christian websites for that! The TWI ceremony sounds alot like a college initiation I went through for a national Thespian society, not an actual coven initiation.

In my mind a big factor is obedience. If to please God ( or goddess, or what have you) you have to accept the authority of another person over your personal life...sooner or later it is going to get ugly. That leaves too mush room for selfish motivations and manipulation.It is not just ex way groups that have authority structures with no form of evaluation or boundaries set for leadership to answer to. I think some are just naive--but others have their reasons.

Most of my adult life I was in TWI, and the idea that I could control all aspects of life--even other people--was a constant. In fact, I was held responsible for things in life by TWI leadership. For instance, after a birth I had kidney failure for a while--it kept me in the hospital for a few days and was quite scary for awhile--but then everything went back to normal. But this was 'caused' by a open door in my believing, I was counselled--even though I wasn't even aware a woman could have kidney issues following a delivery! After leaving TWI hubby and I were pretty burned out. We ceased to talk about believing for stuff etc and just started making practical plans. Quite honestly, making plans and carrying them out has worked far better for us in terms of finances, jobs etc than our former practices. Still, things happen all the time that throw a monkey wrench into the plans. I'm familiar with the "Just World Theory", and it is comforting to think that we get what we deserve in life...but that theory doesn't work in every situation--an accidental early death for instance. Good people don't always have easy pleasant lives... Religions, Christian and other, seem to be all over the place on human control in life.

The two by two thing was a nightmare--so after school on non TWI nights was when we had to drag the whole family grocery shopping... Then there were the schedules to turn into the HFC everyweek. Okay, next Wed at 10 am I'm folding laundry... Two Way mag subscriptions so spouse and I could both 'work' it. We were supposed to listen to the tape separately and together as a couple,too.. Then there was that household inventory--what every drawer and cupboard contained etc, to give to the HFC for the Y2K crisis. There is much, much more but it makes me tired to think about it.

Just have to say--this comment right here should cause ex ways who are thinking about getting involved in an exway ministry a pause for thought. Do you really want to be part of a group that dispises other Christians? Isn't that just a hop away from those same leaders dispising you, if you don't toe their line?

I think appearances were way overrated in TWI. Slick, expensive, attractive...maintaining the look, the illusion of perfection and abundance, was more important than what went on inside hearts and lives. It translated into people's lives. How many people kept others at a distance so they could maintain thier perfect illusion? Especially leaders. I do not trust those that put huge emphasis on appearance anymore. Nor have I ever seen a church or religious building that wasn't kept up. A food pantry in the old part of downtown maintained by a church, doesn't have to look like a 5 star hotel to do the job.

Hidden wholeness...I was thinking about something that might be the opposite...hidden brokenness. When I was in TWI, there were always things that jarred me--the separation from earthy family was one. I could never whole heartedly embrace it. There were several others...but I renewed my mind and told myself that I believed it... Deep inside though there was a jarring or discord, something uncomfortable. Being a good wafer I ignored it--but later after i left, those things were the first doctrines of TWI to go!

I'll bow out. I only popped in on this thread because Lindy asked something about WIcca so I had something to discuss on the subject. I have no deep interest in devil theology or black threads, since I don't believe in either. Nor am I interested in a Believer/Unbeliever war, which I think is pointless.

Sheesh, Sunesis, I think I'm insulted.. I don't think I've been rude or insulting on this thread. If I wanted to be rude, I could, I know how. I doubt that I would use the word idiot. I saw no one fighting. I didn't see people agreeing either, but that is to be expected. I see no value in fighting about beliefs, because no one can ever win. I stated my thoughts which differs from yours, so what? Do you find just hearing about different beliefs and thoughts threatening? I am not here to convert anyone or to be converted. I come here because I find the subject matter interesting, and often someone will post something that helps me understand certain things about life and people or myself deeper.

Dispater --the continental gods did not always fit so neatly into the Roman pantheon. Dispater was an underworld god but the underworld was not a 'bad' place, because Dispater was also a continenetal ancestor god of the Gauls(contenental Celts.) He shares fetility and death characteristics with Cernunos. Dispater's consort Aerecura/ Heracura/ Prosperina, who in some aspects/places was a consort of the horned god...There is also a sky god earth mother,aspect. http://www.worldspirituality.org/gods-of-gaul.html

With so many countries enamoured with nukes and other deadly weapons that poison soils and atmosphere, I suspect that we could all go at any time. Or maybe it'll take a couple generations, with families dying off from radiation caused cancers etc. Not the Biblical end, and maybe not really the end of the human race, but end of life as we know it. The God of the Bible doesn't stop man from cruel and evil decisions, after all. Where's that hundredth monkey!

A good editor, yes. Do the souls that go to heaven lose their free will? What if they choose to do evil with their free will? Satanists idea of Satan isn't really the Bible devil. It's long and complicated, as I recall. ReligiousTolerance.org Some Wiccans believe the Christian devil was taken from the old gods of the forests and fields, the Horned Gods, Herne, Cernunos, Pan, Dispater... demonized by the church to drive peopel away and into the church. That is why he isn't in the old testament.

I'm involved in a teen caravan/party to different Haunted House sites in the area. One of the grave yards is doing a tour but it sounds more like an 'Our Town' type with actors talking about their lives rather than fright night stuff. I'm looking forward to that, sounds like an opportunity to see some local history, local characters. A couple friends and I will get together on Sat, night for our own little celebration. There are some larger open circles in the area, some require a bit of driving...don't know if I'll get involved in any.

I'm going to have to read your post again, T bone because there is alot in there. This probably isn't going to make any sense...but then I test out as one of those random abstract people hahah The whole heaven and hell thing all comes down to what is good and what is evil...good should be rewarded, evil punished. If there is One Truth that deals with how humans should live, act etc, and Jesus Christ is the example, teacher of that truth, then that truth has to be able to be applied to situations Jesus didn't live. He was never a soldier, or a politician, or a mother...so the truth has to be bigger than the literal chapter and verse. Something like a world view, perhaps. Attitude of heart. But if the one truth is eternal...then it existed before Jesus walked on the earth. It would live not as the specific actions, like going to the temple, but more as a certain way of seeing, of a direction from the heart. If the one Truth made lives better, made people better, then there would be those in a society that would notice and speak of it, teach it. Jesus, or the one truth...it would look different in different cultures or different situations, but it would be the actions, or really, the heart behind the actions that brings the healing, or the peace. The right thing at the right time. I've met people like that.Some I knew were Christians, some not, some I don't know, but where they were, the world was a better place. I've known TWIers who were very disciplined yet their influence on other people was just destructive . There's people like that in the pagan community, too, the 'witchier than thous'. Funny, totally different rules, disciplines, but their affect on others is the same type of distructiveness, because it is what is on the inside coming out.