Bramble

They plan to market it through mega churches. Maybe this is how we can raise our own crop of suicide bombers! http://www.alternet.org/story/38873/ http://www.talk2action.org/story/2006/5/29/195855/959

Don't forget Yule! I don't actually know a pagan that celebrates the Winter Solstice( not that I have a huge network of pagan friends), though some do Mother's Night on the solstice. The ones I know practice Yule. Some pagans think Santa is a new form of Odin, others a form of Thor...they both point to legends. I thought this was a interesting blog post--YMMV. I don't see any point in being upset about celebration times, especially one that is meant to be a time of warmth, generosity, thankfulness etc. http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_colum...ing_light_.html

Hmmm, I like to think it is a season for generosity and good cheer, bringing some beautiful light into the darkness. Christmas, Yule, Hannukah, why does it have to be a competition?

I don't know about earlier decades, but in the nineties, Leaders were more than spiritual advisors. Obedience to leaders was the KEY to prosperingin the Prevailing Household. They stood in the gap and whatnot. Obeying them was obeying God, this was how God set it up, ranking authority up to the MOG. So your Household Fellowship Coord, if so inclined, could move right on in to your life and become the new Head of Your household--with the blessing of his higher leadership. Child rearing, marriage, sex life, finances--he could have a nose in all of that. Your only recourse was if you had a high ranking friend or relative who could knock down your overbearing leader. Or you could leave the One True Household Remnant of God Almighty and turn your back On Him... Obey obey obey, gag.

Some of what has been said reminds me a little of the Wiccan /Witch Charge of the Goddess, (D. Valiente) 'And you who seek to know Me, know that the seeking and yearning will avail you not, unless you know the Mystery: for if that which you seek, you find not within yourself, you will never find it without.' The difference being that from a Christian viewpoint, what you would find would have to come from the Christian God, an external inputting...while in other beliefs it would be there already because you are a descendant, child, family....

To know who God is...I grew up in a church, then spent most of my adult life in TWI. That God, the bible god, I don't know. My experience with him veered so wildly from a good God to a judgemental harsh god...all tied to some type of biblical interpretation...and there are a million different Biblical interpretations.That God is confusing, nor do I have trust in the Bible or the interpretations of it, or see how it can be the One True Way. The God of Mark and avoid, the god of punishment and Hell, the God who requires obedience or bad things happen doesn't seem like someone to put my trust into. I chose to look outside that frame work and have found that one doesn't have to know everything or jump through hoops. I don't have to spend the rest fo my life trying to figure out how to interpret the Bible. I know others have had different experiences, reached different conclusions, but I can't live through someone else' experinece. Not anymore.

Poor guy. Once Twi Leaders determine who the 'bad' spouse is, then the pressure is on...marriages, like people, are disposable there. I'm assuming they mean counseling with in the household. If he were fortunate enough to get counseling outside the household, then the control/anger/fear manipulation culture of TWI might come up, might open his eyes. What's that verse in Proverbs about corrupting good manners? Yeah, if you surround yourself with it...think you can control life by being angry, control family, spouse...

I went to several wedding while I was there. Penny and ??Mark?, Ken and Belinda, one other, can't remember names. Mark Lewis was the LC when I was there.

I kept my kids as far away from the HF as I could. Hubby and I tried to have only one of us attend fellowship, but once a week or so we'd drag the whole family. I was glad when one of them had a cold--of course, then it would be a black mark against our beliving, but still... Small children were seen as some type of devilish blight or something. They interfeared with the teaching of THE WORD if they fussed etc--but it was all repititious, any way. Same stuff taught over and over in 10 minute increments. I know we were told to spank them for crying AFTER you spanked them for some disobedience--they could learn to take it silently...we didn't. They were supposed to be ready to listen to our words. I'll bet there are some massively screwed up kids coming out of TWI. And the one time swat for getting attention? If the child was crying, then you didn't have their attention. Swat again, a whole series of one time get their attention swats. Our HFC bragged about a swat session that lasted 20 min. As for standing up to leadership...not in my area in the ninties. You just secretly rebelled and avoided the one true Household. Standing up for yourself or your kid gained you no respect, just put you on the 'watch' list or worse.

I do miss my Amazing Sea Monkeys. I think Santa will bring some if I am very,very good.

I think if people want to have a large family and work to meet the needs of their family, no problem.When it becomes a 'doctrine' of how to be godly, and taught from the pulpit by authority figures, the it becomes not so much a personal lifestyle choice. Some people will submit themselves to that doctrine, believing what they are taught, even though they may not have the talents or resources for raising a large family.That's where you find families where women feel trapped, where no one really has enough--enough sleep or food or money or patience or attention. And that's some of what I saw growing up.

Mark, you mentioned one thing I've noticed. There seems to be some kind of longing to be back in the nineteenth century among some of the homeschool folks I've known. I know a mom who homeschooled three daughters--she made them 'school uniforms' --pink gingham pinafores. Yes, they looked darling, like blond pioneer baby dolls...but it was a little weird...

I don't really object to big families, though my experience growing up with kids from big families( like 8 or more kids. I grew up in a family of four kids and we weren't really considered a big family in the Catholic community we lived in) wasn't that great. I remember my college roommate, the oldest of eight, telling me why she had no plans to ever have kids of her own--she felt like she'd already raised her kids, her younger siblings. Her junior and senior high years we full of childcare and chores. She never did have kids, either. If a couple can meet the pysical and emotional needs of an enormous family, and that is their desire, then I don't have a problem. But as for enormous families becoming some kind of church trend, well, I think many people are not really prepared to raise huge families and meet the needs of the kids. One girl I grew up with stands out--when she got out of highschool she paid for her own braces, because her parents couldn't afford them, and she had really crooked teeth that always bothered her. I do feel sorry for the daughters, since it seems like many of the ultra Bible Literalist/traditional folk don't think higher education is all that important for girls, since they need to marry and raise kids...not every girl wants to or is suited to that life. And that whole 'Raise up an army for God'? Just plain scary. What does an army do? They take control by force. Ick. Viewing others outside your group as the enemies--too close to 'wash my feet in the blood of the wicked' for me.

Will it work? Will the kids from these big families reallystand for exactly what their parents stand for? I would think a number of them will make the decision that their kids won't wear hand me downs, their kids will have braces and dermatologists, their kids will know enough about popular culture etc to not feel like a freak when they enter the work force. I knew kids from big families, growing up catholic. I had a boyfriend who was #9 in a family of 17 kids. My mother was one of twelve...I don't know anyone who grew up in a huge family who then decided it was so great they were going to have their own huge family. Pretty hard to raise that many kids and meet needs. Doing lots of chores and being obedient don't necessarily make childhood memories warm and fuzzy. When the kids grow up, they may very well look back and decide to do better by their own children.

oops

I don't think LCM was any kind of authority on work ethic. Sure, employees need to meet employer expectations--and those can varry from employer to employer. LCM was just doing what all the leadershi+ I saw in the later years did--find fault, then go ballistic over it. Like it is so spiritual to find fault with another person, because we all know most people are perfect. Sheesh. This was how they used their imagination--to develop horrible accusations toward other believers based on some ordinary fault or even perceived fault. Real issues that they may have really been able to help peope deal with--too boring. Much more personally satisfying to make a big stink so all eyes were on you.

I can see it now--the twiggies will have to turn in their menus a week in advance, all planned out according to the Food Pyramid, to prove that they are actively believing for good health. Except that will take so much time they will actually just be running through the Mc donalds drive through in the hour between work and household Fellowship. No one will figure out why they are all gaining weight.

Many of us on GSC had an overall negative experience with TWI. When trying to figure out how it went so sour, how we were so blind, TWI doctrine comes up. Obeying the MOG, the emphasis put on conformity--they were all tied up in doctrine, Bible verses and teachings to bolster those practices. I personally don't care too much about jot and tittle doctrinal discussions--this Greek word means this not that, etc. Had that for twenty years, and in the end it lead to nowhere good or healthy in my experience. How much of it was used in away to get and keep power over people? Some people still have great trust in the Bible...I think what they really trust is their own interpretation of the Bible. Some still argue that there is One Definitive Interpretation of the Bible. Seems to me there isn't and can't be...others know they have the Truth. Makes for interesting viewpoints.

Heehee, I've thought this same thing. Oh well. There were certainly lessons to be learned. Perhaps we can help others avoid such traps.

7 or 8 years to be vested in the 401k? What a rip off! Every 401k program I've heard about vests after one year. Mine does, so does hubby's.

In TWI anger was used to manipulate. We saw leaders throw 'tantrums' and then get their way all the time. Anger got things done your way. I don't think there is anything wrong with the emotion of anger--isn't it supposed to warn you that something is very wrong? Fight or flight---or for most of us, a dicussion to hammer out an issue...

Whether anyone was telling anyone else what to believe on this htread I don't know--things written can read different ways... I think it is kind of funny how people are always trying to fit you in somewhere, dancing. I suspect you are 'unfittable.' In TWI it was a non thought--of COURSE everyone in the entire world should believe down to EVERY TINY DETAIL what I believe. It seems like many ex ways can leave Way doctrine, find a new doctrine,and still think this way--of COURSE every one should believe the trinity like I do--or whatever. I just think it is not possible to dictate what any other person should or even can believe in the depths of their own heart and mind. You can try, using fear and manipulation tactics, along with a few sugar cubes, like TWI did...but deep inside, that can't be controled by another.

quote'BTW, the swastika is still in common use today in Buddhist and Hindu temples. There is a clockwise and counter-clockwise design and - though what the meaning is seems to vary greatly depending on who you ask - it's generally said to be a symbol of longevity, abundance, and good fortune. Personally I find "faith" to be simply an excuse to believe in something that you have no proof for whatever, but, as a great sage once said, "Whatever blows your skirt up"...' I read somewhere that the name swastika isn't German but Indo European(I think?). I don't think there's anything wrong in not believing, or someone not having decided what they believe or if they even do. I would be the last to dictate to anyone what they have to do in such matters. I'd rather people just be honest. And tolerant, I appreciate tolerance.

Interesting, Danny. I'll have to look up an anchor cross. The pre Nazi swastika was a positive image, but now the symbolism is so clouded. I have a necklace called a Lauburu, which is like a solar cross but more rounded on the end with a celtic knot look. I have quite few necklaces with symbols that mean something to me but don't freak out the public. I find they help me keep something I want to think about in mind...images work well for me. Dancing--good point about faith there. ' It wasn't- By Abel faith By Enoch faith By Noah faith By Abraham faith Through Sara faith '

I'm not all that comfortable with the demand type of believing. I know alot of people( Christian and pagan) swear that it works, though I'm not convinced of that either. What I am convinced of is that, as a parent, my kids best NOT demand anything from me!--it will not bring the desired results, because what my children are 'entitled' to, I make sure they already have, like food, clothes, love and affection, reasonable limits, social activities etc. If they want something, we can talk about it, investigate it...but they might not get it. And if one of my kids is loved onesis sick or in need, then they don't have to demand, I will do what I can to help them...if it is beneficial to them. I will not do their homework for them, stuff like that. As far as I can tell, believing/asking/demanding of a spiritual power doesn't really work like that...I prefer to gain what wisdom I can from mine...I suspect mine would do a motherly smack down if I demanded...I'm always aware that what might be great for me might not be so great for someone else, and if I initiate something then the repurcusions are mine to deal with. I personally think there are chaotic elements all over this big wide world that make life unpredictable in many ways. Anyway, I started this thread because it seems so obvious to me now, that we all make spiritual choices in the privacy of our own individual minds...declaring myself to be right, in fact the only right way for you all seems rather bizarre now. I can declare that something is right for me, but I can't speak for anyone else, because what fits for me doesn't work for someone else. Back in my Way daze that wasn't at all clear to me. In fact I did not examine what I really thought, because my 'job' was to run the correct doctrine through my brain until it made a groove or something. Thoughts contrary to the 'present truth' made grooves, too, but those were conduits for devil spirits(who can't read minds but hey, no one said it had to make sense.) Like minded meant not thinking about anything in depth, because then you begin to question... There is one Bible verse I think about--the one where we see through a glass darkly. Ever looked through some old thick glass? It distorts when you look through it. I think that is an apt analogy for humans looking at the spiritual.