Bramble

Too funny, you guys!

Plus, in Jesus' culture, there was not another synagog on the corner you could join, leaving the abusive leaders behind! Wasn't Jesus trying to bring about change with in his own culture? It seems to me that the whole sheep analogy was an appeal to the leaders of his time to have some compassion and care of the flock.

My point being, you don't blame the sheep for being sheep. The resposibility for the safety of the flock is the shepard's responsibility.

Lazy sheep makes no sense. Sheep need shepards or llamas or something because they are vulnerable to the dangers of predators and water (due to their wool). They are not lazy--it is their nature which they cannot change. They have few defense abilities. ( Domestic sheep, not talking about mountain sheep.) They are good at getting out of fences and clogging highways, though. Sheep need oversight to stay safe. -sez one who lived on a sheep ranch for a couple years.

I think you have a point. We noticed how delightful, warm, giving and kind our earthly families were compared to the Household Fellowship. To our TWI leadership we were just props. Make them look good , or you were useless.

Umm, you might be surprised to know that the modern witchcraft movement isn't much into cursing or authoritarian or magickal control of others. Or poisoning! In fact, those actions are pretty much frowned upon, and I, to my knowledge, haven't met a witch who's into cursing and control. Most belive in some manner of Karma or Law of Returns and tend to be cautious. So I wish those of you that like to use the term 'witchcraft' to mean something so derogatory, would be more specific in defining the use of that term. In my experience, there was much more control in authoritarian Christian TWI, plus cursings( predictions of disaster, delivering people to SAtan etc.) and manipulative prayers to change another person, even against their will, then there is in the modern witch/pagan movement/religions. And plenty of Christians pray for things they want in their lives and attempt to control their life and other's live through prayer.

I think fear is our warning system--pay attention, take action, something is wrong. I don't think it is bad. Like anything, some people will spend far too much time in worry or fear, others will ignore fear warnings and do reckless things.m Neither of those is a healthy place IMO. I'm not a big believer in the concept that the opposite of fear is faith. I think the opposite of fear is more like comfort or joy--things are right. Most of the time in TWI fear seemed to be in the category of speaking the word. Shyness or 'lack of boldness' are not the same thing as fear, but TWI never distinguished that.

I don't mind having a baptismal record out there, or that I'm still counted on Catholic statistics. I mentioned this to my brother, and he feels that anyone who survived Sister Victoire(viscious) in fifth grade has every right to check the catholic box when a form requires a religion! (Bro is a tree hugging pagan who works on environmental issues.) He also stays in touch with some of his old buddies from Catholic School. Plus who knows, maybe some future Bramble descendant will need baptismal records for a geneology search!

Haha, Vegan--my brother and i used to pretend we were speaking French. And it was just the same!

If you have Windows media player, you can use the 'add library' function to pull your Limewire downloads to WMP. Then you can make a list and burn them.

All depressions cases have low self esteam and unworthyness??? I'd like to see some proof on that.

It has happened about three times to me, about leadership I knew in the mid to late nineties who'd been in TWI for many years. Some of the leaders are still in, some are out. I wonder if any loyal to Loy Way Corps leadership kept their hands clean in the nineties. Anyway, I haven't and probably won't say anything. Some people changed alot from 1979...

Several times in the past few years I've run across names on Greasepost and posters who chime in about how that leader was the BEST, did great things for them and God etc. But I happen to know about a situation involving that leader, either personally or from a TWI friend--about how that warm n fuzzy leader just about destroyed someone. Divorce, custody battles, a guy left with post traumastic stress, a teen lost to his family because of 'godly' decisions made about how to treat the teen... Or a leader that was great to us, stuck up for us, but at the same time was hounding some other believer in the area, who later confided in me. The incidents/leaders I'm thinking about were all in the mid to late 90's LCM era. I read those post and wonder if I should post the other side of the story, or pm somebody, or just leave them with their good memories? So far I haven't piped up. The idea of going through all that makes me feel weary. Have you had this situation pop up?

Many in Wiccan /pagan beliefs believe a saying 'As above so below'---that the natural world is a reflection of the spiritual. So spiritual things can be somewhat understood by understanding the world around us. In our world there are natural cycles of water, decay--things change but are not really lost...most Wiccans believe in some form of afterlife followed by new life someday. Sometimes they call it Summerland, or Tir NA Nog. People seek visions or lucid dreams, especially around Samhain, hoping for a glimpse of loved ones passed on, or of a spiritual seeing into the spiritual world. Humans, being part of this physical world, only have glimpses of the spiritual. But all those experiences would be in the realm of unverified personal gnossis--no physical evidence or proof, because it is not physical.

We were marked and avoided and slandered when we left.The LC told us we would lose all our friends, yup, that was so. Only one old friend from that era has ever got in contact with us, and the conversation always ends in some type of 'the ministry is so sweet now' and some type of build up of what great believers we were and knew the Word etc...I think this person is genuine in their care and concern, but is in mourning because we are gone and lost. They want to make it right.

Give me sheets that have been washed in hot water and dried in hot dryer!

Did you have a bonfire,Oakspear? I did a solitary thing, but the night sky was gorgeous.

We spend about $200 a week, family of five. Hubby is type 1 diabetic and does not eat processed or junky foods. We pack lunches for all, since the school cafeteria has so many junky options available(nachos and gatoraide are not my idea of a good lunch.) We cook from scratch except for Friday night, which might be take and bake Pizza or a good frozen lasagna. We rarely eat out. We garden but by this time of the year all we have left are frozen/canned things, dried herbs, garlic and squash. We have a good friend who owns a game processing business, and we get lots of free venison and elk, which is great-- people often are not interested in the venison hamburger etc. We make chili, tacos etc with ground venison. Fruit is so expensive, we are looking into fruits we can grow. I'd like to get a bread machine since really good bread is so expensive, but since I work full time making bread all the time won't happen. We cook several meals on Sunday that can be reheated during the week to save time. We use the crock pot alot, in fact we seem to wear one out every year. I label things with a sharpie or by the time I get home from work the kids will have devoured all the cheese etc planned for a meal one night!

So, one couple after another do it in that little plane with red carpet? No clean sheets or nothin? EEEWWW.

Hey, Lindyhopper, that sounds like a great basis for a speculative fiction novel.

I'm so glad Krysillis said that and you brought it over,Belle.

Thank you Oakspear, that si what I was trying to say! And for the record, I don't believe Satan is a god, or that he even exists. I think he is just tooo convenient. A huge boogey man to keep the little peoples in line.

Umm, there is no pagan god that is equivalent to the Christian Satan, a god of only evil. Not even dark gods, like Set. Chaos is seen as a necessary element, so there can be order. Rebellion has its place, just like obedience or cooperation does. Sometimes people who have experienced chaos and powerlessness feel an affinity for powerful protector gods like Set or Kali. Set was also sexually ambiguous(testacles ripped off) so some gay men have an affinity for him. Also many have experienced chaos and or feeling powerless, especially in adolescence... Black/ white good/ evil type thinking is not what I would consider a hallmark of modern pagan thought. A Set follower would not necessarily be malevolent toward others..

Even you, Starbird, who believes and lives by this 'law' has to tip toe around it. You bring up a few cases to show how this law benefits humans...but you just can't come out and say it, can you. Because it is stark and hard and cruel. A person is better off DEAD than to take a blood transfusion. This is what your God Wants. So, my husband and family would somehow be better off by following this law? Hmmpf. So wrestle your mind around to accept it, folks. It is how to please God. Just obey. On judgement day, you'll get the benefit...

We don't attend church now, but I did for awhile. I didn't make my kids attend if they didn't want to. They were involved briefly in a Wed night program but we didn't care for the attitudes they were coming home with--the 'you're not a Christian' accusations etc. We took them out. They spent two summers in a very well run, fun, tweeners program run by a big mainstream church and they all enjoyed that, plus I think it erased some of the ugliness of TWI. They still have friends they met there. They dramatized alot of Bible stories. My kids were younger than yours when we left, plus the two years prior to leaving we minimised their involvment as much as possible, so they don't remember too much. I personally would not force a child to go to church, especially not a teen. You can make them go, but you can't make it a good experience for them, I think. My own spiritual path is not Christian, and I believe people need to seach and find their own genuine path, not take up one to please another. TWI was all about pleasing authority figures, probably even more so for a child.